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Old 09-03-2002   #61 (permalink)
SaleenMoose is offline Rookie


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Default Turbo vs. Supercharger

Well here is my .02 on this subject. Just having bought my 02 GT I am having troubles on deciding what to do. Before I bought my GT I had a 02 Subaru WRX. I thought that it was going to be the way to go, but after a couple of months of having it I just couldn't get into the RICER scene. Anyway I had some problems with the turbo, I did everything that I was supposed to do by cooling the turbo after hard boosts, even installed a turbo timer just in case I ever was in a hurry. Well anyway right now I am planing on putting a new bullit manifold on the GT, with a C&L 80mm Mass Airflow, and a ProCharger with Water to Methonal Injection Boost Cooler. I am sure that I will have to do some other mods on the car to have this work properly, but when I went to the local drags, there was a guy with a 93 Cobra, with a 4.6 Modular and was running in the Mid 10's(with E/T Street radials). I don't know what the turbos cost for a Mustang, but I know when I went to check on upgrading the Turbo for the suby it was going to cost me a whole lot more that was I was williing to diish out to run in the low 13s. Anyway I am just rambling on now, but hey oh well. I am sure that it is cheaper for the Mustang to do this with. So again why should I Turbo instead of Supercharging(besides the power at different RPMs)? I guess why turbo a Muscle Car, don't get me wrong I know turbo is becoming the way to go, but it just seems so RICE like! Don't get me wrong, I always have wanted the 85 1/2 SVO Mustang, but that is a whole different engine and weight ratio! Thanks guys and ladies!
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Old 09-06-2002   #63 (permalink)
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Oh man!

I sure miss my twins. That just brought a tear to my eye

That sounded cool. Turbos sound real cool from inside the car too. Kind of like a low flying jet, and almost as fast!
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Old 09-16-2002   #64 (permalink)
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My father and I have two turbo Mustangs. My father's has a single T-76 and mine has twin T-66 turbos. I have spent the last three years building and tuning the two cars. After all the research, trial and error, and finally success, I have learned a thing or two about turbos.

In general, I agree with all Nic's comments (at the start of this thread) except two: the heat problem, and ease of install. Additionally, I would like to address the question of spool-up time.

Heat Problem: Heat really is a "problem" to be dealt with in a turbocharger install. However, if properly managed, it will not be a problem. The challenge is the exhaust ducting involved with a turbo install. Most designs have the headers facing forward to the front of the engine. Then, after going through the turbo(s), the exhaust must make its way back past the engine again to go out the back of the car. Now you have a bunch of exhaust tubing in your engine bay. The heat from the exhaust tubing will melt wires and burn plug wires if it is not properly shielded. However, with proper shielding, the problem is solved. The methods used to shield the exhaust are 1) coat the headers and exhaust with a high-temp reflective coating, like Jet-Hot 2) Wrap the headers (will greatly reduce header life, especially with uncoated &/or mild-steel headers, because of thermal fatigue... stainless headers are preferred for turbos) 3) Build a heat shield out of aluminum or other sheet metal to cover the headers, turbine housing, or other sensitive areas (with wiring, fuel lines, etc.) 4) Wrap the plug wires with high-temp "boots" or "fire-sleeve", and route the plug wires (and other wires) away from the exhaust. 5) Use a raised-cowl hood to help the hot under-hood air escape. Using these techniques will solve the heat "problem".

Ease of Install: In general, a turbo system is much harder to install than a supercharger system. There is all the exhaust tubing mentioned above, plus the wastegate tubing (if using an external gate). If you are running a single turbo, you have to deal with a crossover pipe (I prefer designs that have the crossover running in front of the engine to avoid crossover/transmission/ground clearance problems). Next, you route the intake plumbing through an intercooler up to the intake. If you are using twin turbos, you have to join the two outputs before the intercooler. This all adds up to a lot of tubing, and like all car parts, NOTHING FITS. Plan on a lot of "tweaking" to get everything to fit right. When you compare that to a simple centrifugal blower install w/o an intercooler... the blower is much easier to install.

Spool up time: Spool up time is affected by several factors: 1) Manual transmission or automatic with high speed stall? 2) Size (mass) of compressor(s)? 3) Engine compression ratio? 4) Turbine exhaust housing A/R ratio? 5) Camshaft design? 6) Exhaust back-pressure?

1) In any car with a manual transmission or an automatic with low stall, the engine is not able to freely rev up to its power band like a auto trans with a loose converter. You want quick spooling? Put in an auto with a loose converter (same goes for centrifugal S.C.)

2) Centrifugal compressors (superchargers and turbos) typically run at speeds between 50k and 120k RPM max(smaller compressors run at higher RPMs). The mass of the compressor determines the force required to accelerate the compressor. Two small compressor wheels can move the same air as one big compressor wheel, while weighing less than half, so they spool quicker... hence twin turbos advantage. Don't expect the exhaust energy from a stock engine to quickly spool up a 101mm turbo.

3) Compression ratio can make a big difference in the amount of exhaust energy available to drive a turbo. Ever hear the "crackle" of a high-compression race engine? Those intense pulses from the high-compression exhaust port have much more force than the those from a low compression engine. However, the high-compression engine can not accept much boost. A low compression race engine gives up some low-RPM exhaust energy to be able to accept large amounts of boost to make high horsepower levels after the turbo spools up. Many people are astounded by how much power the turbo Buick V6 makes. Guess what... many are running 7:1 compression and 20+ pounds of boost. A street car should be somewhere in between.

4) The turbo exhaust housing A/R ratio is basically the "size" of the housing. The larger the number, the bigger the housing. The housing is the "funnel" the exhaust passes through to spin the turbo. A small housing (big exhaust restriction) will build a lot of backpressure in the headers quickly, providing a lot of force to spool the turbo quickly. However, the same exhaust restriction kills performance on the top end. The opposite is true for a large exhaust housing (large A/R ratio).

5) Camshaft design plays a big role in spool-up time of a turbo motor. A turbo camshaft should have little or no overlap. Why? Exhaust pressure in a turbo motor (in the headers, before the turbo) is typically two to three times the boost pressure, depending on A/R ratio, etc. What would happen if you have 15 psi boost, 30 psi exhaust pressure, and the intake and exhaust valves are both open? The exhaust will blow back into the cylinder/intake. Additionally, the RPM range the camshaft is designed for will have a large effect on exhaust energy. If the cam is for high RPM (lots of duration, some overlap probably unavoidable) then it will be inefficient at filling the cylinders at low RPM and generate little exhaust energy until RPM increases to it's designed efficient range. A stock type cam (especially combined with similarly tuned long runner intakes) produces an efficient low-RPM powerbamd, and will develop exhaust energy quickly.

6) Exhaust back pressure can make a significant difference in how fast a turbo spools up. The force available to spool the turbo is directly related to (Pressure inside headers) - (exhaust backpressure after turbo). Many turbo race cars have found that dumping the exhaust directly out of the turbo (without going through a muffler system) can reduce spool up time and increase boost pressure. A turbo engine generates just as much exhaust gas as any other engine with the same horsepower. Make sure that your exhaust does not create a restriction for your horsepower level, or the turbo spool up time will suffer. Also, 20 feet of 3" pipe is significantly harder to blow through than a short turndown of 3" pipe. Try this experiment: Breathe through a McDonald's soda straw, then cut it to 1" long and breathe through it again... a huge difference.

All in all, turbos represent the most powerful, reliable, and streetable power adder. Their shortcomings are cost and install complexity (cost). Check out the JunkYard Turbo group for cheap alternatives.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jyturbo/
Here's someone who did it cheap and well:
http://www.toohighpsi.com/DragRadial/dragradial.htm
Here are some more good turbo links:
http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbo_links.htm
If you can afford one, install one (or two) properly and you will not be disappointed.

-DanTheMan-
dshipley@cncnc.com
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Old 10-09-2002   #65 (permalink)
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ok well i run a 91 gt 5.0 and i have been listening to all of this but still if i plan to go out on the streets about every weekin and run people which would be better for me? and my car will mybe see the drag strip mybe once or twice but which would be better?
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Old 10-13-2002   #66 (permalink)
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New on here, found you lot via search engine.
I run a 1989 Yamaha FZR1000 fitted with a turbo and yes you do get a bit of lag, Heaps of mid and top end torque though. My car is a Ford RS 2000 4x4 limited edition, Ford only made 500 4 wheel drive versions, it has 150 bhp stock and zero torque at low rpm. Very slow off the mark!
I will be soon fitting it with the engine form a Ford (europe) people carrier [MPV??] which is the same engine but 2300cc and an Eaton M62 blower to cure the lack of bottom end. I did consider a turbo but I wanted the car to drive like it had a bigger engine all the time, not just at higher revs.
That being said the KING car to modify over here is one of the Ford Cosworth varients, either the Sierra or the Escort. 2 liter 16 valve turbo 4x4. Stock 220bhp, 330 will cost about £1300 and then it's as much as you can afford. Poor quality video from a recent show in England wher a 0-60 mph challenge was held.
http://www.dazclayton.pwp.blueyonder.../therapid1.mpg
Kicked Skyline ass.
Mark
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Old 10-16-2002   #67 (permalink)
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Not bad!

I sure love them there turbos
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Old 10-21-2002   #68 (permalink)
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You know it really only comes down to preference, do what you think is best for your setup. All though Turbo's are better.
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Old 11-12-2002   #69 (permalink)
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Default Turbo vs. Super

Heres my two cents...

I haven't ever had a car with a turbo or a supercharger, but I have freinds who have had both, and I have done a significant amount of reading on the subject. It seems to me that turbos are far better than superchargers as far as versatility and power(and also those sick blow-off sounds). But the fact of the matter is that for some reason there is a very limited market for mustang turbo systems. The people who do sell turbo kits for mustangs seem to have mediorcore customer service and compartivly high prices. I am sure that the day some one like paxton or vortech markets a turbo kit for mustangs that can be bought and installed for a comprable price to todays superchargers that supercharged mustangs will quickly become as easy to find as turbo mustangs are now. But the day that happens is the same day that hell freezes over and the devil gives free sleigh rides.
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Old 11-12-2002   #70 (permalink)
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i think turbos are the way to go on most big 8's. Many people like blowers etc because of the torque that the turbo doesnt always deliver. However, unless you have a great pair of drag slicks that torques is waisted as your tire peels.. if you have a good strong torque band your best bet is the turbo because less of the power will be wasted in the tires because turbos build pressure at higher rpm giving you more power the faster your going
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Old 11-13-2002   #71 (permalink)
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tostaroller,

forced induction, be it turbo or s/c, will give you torgue. And while you can set-up a turbo to build boost in the upper rpm range, you can also set-up a turbo to build boost down low too. Mine for example builds full boost by 2500-2800 rpm's
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Old 11-14-2002   #72 (permalink)
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Tony:

Does the Incon Twin Turbo kit come with one-way check valves?
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Old 11-14-2002   #73 (permalink)
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Yes it does.

Every line coming from the intake gets one, except the line from the actuators of course.
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Old 11-19-2002   #74 (permalink)
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My friend has a blow off valve with his Vortec S-trim. i'm probably going to do the same thing with my ATI. In fact, I do have a relief valve, but it just doesn't make any noise. Most people don't realize that you can put a blow off valve on a supercharger. You have to put the valve BEFORE the MAS. It can blow off to the atmosphere.
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Old 11-26-2002   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaleBrown
HAHAHA I love the bantering back and forth that is starting to grow more now between the supercharger and turbo guys. Heck soon it'll be as bad as the mustang vs camaro guys.

Anyway, I personally run a supercharger right now but have seriously thought about a turbo setup. I think you have to take a hard look at what you are going to be doing with the car when completed. Then work back from there and look at the advantages and disadvantes of each setup and make an "informed" decision. You should do this with every project you undertake.
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