nitros- filling a bottle all the time
vortech - lil bit of lag and prob due to how long ago it was, it seamed life we were always tuning
twin t4/5...so much hacking to get it in there. Heat issues. tons of power but lots of tylenol
this time im just going with a Kenne bell and calling it quits.
they all have their pros and cons. You really just need to find one of each and go for a ride and see what your preferance is.
j
__________________
2004 mustang gt
Update: JLT CAI, SLP LM2 catback,
Parts in the basement : To much to list. heres a hint..it involves a watts link and turbos.
(Durability) your quote<<<<<<<<,
Two areas establish the turbo as a highly durable mechanism; the trucking industry and the 24 hour Le Mans
Endurance Race. Just call truck repair facilities for the first category of information. Le Mans is a different
matter. Porsche has publically stated that their engineering department considers street versus race wear rates
as 1000 to 1. While perhaps a little high, one needs to assemble really good data to dispute Porsche.
Regardless, consider that this race covers 3,500 miles in 24 hours. Porsche says this is equivalent to 3,500,000 street miles and its also done without an oil change. The race has been won by a turbocharged car in the majority of events in the last 40 years. Please note that the factory team of Cadillac racers were all turbocharged.
(In reality) my quote<<<<<
Trucks use turbos because they have too! not because they are more durable.
40 tons of Truck needs boost just to get them rolling in first gear.
otherwise they become a hazard for motorists. (Typical boost level between 15 to 22 Lb of boost needed in the trucking industry)
HEHEHE, turbos are less reliable than super chargers! end of story.
They do make more power, but at the cost of reliability.......
Heat is the # one cause for failure. What about every day ware, and Terr?
Obviously the more its making boost at all rpm, the more were on the internal parts, and bearings. The better the chance for failure.
If a turbo blows up its time for a new turbo, and they do blow the Heck up!
they are spinning much faster than 6000 rpm closer to 10 or 12 thousand rpm at full boost.
Bearing's get very hot, and when its time for the turbo to blow up!
you may have to kiss your engine goodbye. metal prices can easily get lodged in a piston, and destroy rings and pistons. (They contain more internal parts).
On the other hand if a supercharger fails chances are a gear, or a belt
may be the only part you will have to replace.
That's a good thing the weakest link will break first, saving the supercharger itself from the scrap yard. Less parts inside the supercharger means less chance metal pieces will end up inside, and destroying you engine.
This has been a fact finding mission on the part of the reader. You determine if the above statements are fact, or fiction. ( Take it for what its worth)
Based on my findings a supercharger is more reliable, and are cheaper to maintain than its turbo brother.
IN THE LONG RUN THE SUPERCHARGER IS THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE (REPLACEMENT) FOR THE TURBO CHARGER.
__________________
DSS 331 stroker, AFR 185 heads, Performer rpm 2 intake, Accufab 75 mm race TB, 30lb injectors, 80 mm Pro-M mass air, Extreme energy cam 266.
Anderson ford power pipe the big one, Ford motor sport shorty headers, Bassani x pipe custom cat back with flows, World class T5, center force duel friction clutch.
DSS 331 stroker, AFR 185 heads, Performer rpm 2 intake, Accufab 75 mm race TB, 30lb injectors, 80 mm Pro-M mass air, Extreme energy cam 266.
Anderson ford power pipe the big one, Ford motor sport shorty headers, Bassani x pipe custom cat back with flows, World class T5, center force duel friction clutch.
(Durability) your quote<<<<<<<<,
Two areas establish the turbo as a highly durable mechanism; the trucking industry and the 24 hour Le Mans
Endurance Race. Just call truck repair facilities for the first category of information. Le Mans is a different
matter. Porsche has publically stated that their engineering department considers street versus race wear rates
as 1000 to 1. While perhaps a little high, one needs to assemble really good data to dispute Porsche.
Regardless, consider that this race covers 3,500 miles in 24 hours. Porsche says this is equivalent to 3,500,000 street miles and its also done without an oil change. The race has been won by a turbocharged car in the majority of events in the last 40 years. Please note that the factory team of Cadillac racers were all turbocharged.
(In reality) my quote<<<<<
Trucks use turbos because they have too! not because they are more durable.
40 tons of Truck needs boost just to get them rolling in first gear.
otherwise they become a hazard for motorists. (Typical boost level between 15 to 22 Lb of boost needed in the trucking industry)
HEHEHE, turbos are less reliable than super chargers! end of story.
They do make more power, but at the cost of reliability.......
Heat is the # one cause for failure. What about every day ware, and Terr?
Obviously the more its making boost at all rpm, the more were on the internal parts, and bearings. The better the chance for failure.
If a turbo blows up its time for a new turbo, and they do blow the Heck up!
they are spinning much faster than 6000 rpm closer to 10 or 12 thousand rpm at full boost.
Bearing's get very hot, and when its time for the turbo to blow up!
you may have to kiss your engine goodbye. metal prices can easily get lodged in a piston, and destroy rings and pistons. (They contain more internal parts).
On the other hand if a supercharger fails chances are a gear, or a belt
may be the only part you will have to replace.
That's a good thing the weakest link will break first, saving the supercharger itself from the scrap yard. Less parts inside the supercharger means less chance metal pieces will end up inside, and destroying you engine.
This has been a fact finding mission on the part of the reader. You determine if the above statements are fact, or fiction. ( Take it for what its worth)
Based on my findings a supercharger is more reliable, and are cheaper to maintain than its turbo brother.
IN THE LONG RUN THE SUPERCHARGER IS THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE (REPLACEMENT) FOR THE TURBO CHARGER.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
On this mustang im gong to run a Kenne bell, so that tells you im not biased.
But for the fact that a Turbo head unit is more expensive as well as less reliable, is just plain wrong. The high price is not for the head unit but for the associated complexity of the "whole" system. It costs actually the same pretty much to rebuild a turbo.
Also a turbo can be modified with different turbines and housings to upgrade change operating efficiencies.
I have yet to ever see a turbo explode usually they seize up due to oil blockage or due to not being properly cooled and cooking the oil in side of it (turbo timer). But these same things can happen to SC's as well not so much on the heat soaking of the bearings other then in race applications.
All im saying is that with proper maintenance as you would with a oil fed SC the reliability is the same if not better actually.
Like i said everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just don’t bag on something that you’re not as knowledgeable on.
j
__________________
2004 mustang gt
Update: JLT CAI, SLP LM2 catback,
Parts in the basement : To much to list. heres a hint..it involves a watts link and turbos.
DSS 331 stroker, AFR 185 heads, Performer rpm 2 intake, Accufab 75 mm race TB, 30lb injectors, 80 mm Pro-M mass air, Extreme energy cam 266.
Anderson ford power pipe the big one, Ford motor sport shorty headers, Bassani x pipe custom cat back with flows, World class T5, center force duel friction clutch.
I think its some interesting reading but I feel that a lot of it that’s really not 100% accurate.
As Ive mentioned befor, it’s not what is better over all. It’s what is better for your application, goals, and budget.
It just seams that Turbo’s get a bad rap from people that do not have experience in building and maintaining a properly spec’d system.
For that instant boost need you cant beat a roots, whipple type system, but they do tend to run out of steam in street applications in the upper RPM area.
Centrifugal SC’s are good for the upper RPM area but tend to be lacking on the bottom end. They are cheaper then Turbo’s for the initial install but really not by much when you add up the other odds and ends you need, (fuel and spark needs).
Im not all knowing when it comes to turbo’s, but I have worked and created a few systems for DSM’s as well for Mustangs.
Cost
The cost of supercharger and a turbocharger systems for the same engine are approximately the same, so cost is generally not a factor.
Tubo’s tend to be slightly more just due to complexity of the system but are about the same and sometimes cheaper for the head unit.
Quote:
Lag
This is perhaps the biggest advantage that the supercharger enjoys over the tubo. Because a turbocharger is driven by exhaust gasses, the turbocharger's turbine must first spool up before it even begins to turn the compressor's impeller. This results in lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During this lag time, the turbocharger is creating little to no boost, which means little to no power gains during this time. Smaller turbos spool up quicker, which eliminates some of this lag. Turbochargers thus utilize a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses boost pressure, and if it gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down..
A Supercharger, on the other hand, is connected directly to the crank, so there is no "lag". Superchargers are able to produce boost at a very low rpm, especially screw-type and roots type blowers.
Um where have you been the last 2-3 years. Yes there is a small bit of lag but it’s usually proportionate to what size the turbo is. Recent couple of years have show huge jumps in turbo efficiency with new CAD designed Impellers. Lag on a properly spec’d turbo system will be no different then any centrifugal SC. As for roots and twin screw that’s a different story.
Quote:
Efficiency
This is the turbo's biggest advantage. The turbocharger is generally more economical to operate as it as it is driven primarily by potential energy in the exhaust gasses that would otherwise be lost out the exhaust, whereas a supercharger draws power from the crank, which can be used to turn the wheels. The turbocharger's impeller is also powered only under boost conditions, so there is less parasitic drag while the impeller is not spinning. The turbocharger, however, is not free of inefficiency as it does create additional exhaust backpressure and exhaust flow interruption.
True but the additional back pressure can be remedied with a properly spec’d exhaust system and turbo.
Quote:
Heat
Because the turbocharger is mounted to the exhaust manifold (which is very hot), turbocharger boost is subject to additional heating via the turbo's hot casing. Because hot air expands (the opposite goal of a turbo or supercharger), an intercooler becomes necessary on almost all turbocharged applications to cool the air charge before it is released into the engine. This increases the complexity of the installation. A centrifugal supercharger on the other hand creates a cooler air discharge, so an intercooler is often not necessary at boost levels below 10psi. That said, some superchargers (especially roots-type superchargers) create hotter discharge temperatures, which also make an intecooler necessary even on fairly low-boost applications.
Um ok great. But who is ever satisfied with running under 10psi. A intercooler is recommended for ALL forced induction systems period.
Quote:
Surge
Because a turbocharger first spools up before the boost is delivered to the engine, there is a surge of power that is delivered immediately when the wastegate opens (around 3000 rpm). This surge can be damaging to the engine and drivetrain, and can make the vehicle difficult to drive or lose traction.
Another thing that proves that this guy has no real experience with turbo’s. Wastgates can be adjusted by changing out the spring in them to cater to that need. And besides when it does open its not going to force so much air that will create that much instant horse power that it will instantly brake rods pistons and dirve line parts. Those parts are broken by wear and tear and improper setup.
Quote:
Back Pressure
Because the supercharger eliminates the need to deal with the exhaust gas interruption created by inserting a turbocharger turbine into the exhaust flow, the supercharger creates no additional exhaust backpressure. The amount of power that is lost by a turbo's turbine reduces it's overall efficiency.
Again this is a simple addition of a better flowing exhaust and a properly spec’d turbo. Too many people just feel that they can just add any huge turbo or any 2 smaller turbos and all is good. There are many efficiency graphs out there as well as air velocity and density calculations to take into account.
Quote:
Noise
The turbocharger is generally quiter than the supercharger. Because the turbo's turbine is in the exhaust, the turbo can substantially reduce exhaust noise, making the engine run quieter. Some centrifugal superchargers are known to be noisy and whistley which, annoys some drivers (we, however, love it!)
Yes you will loose a little bit of sound. Who cares you can now run a more annoying exhaust that would normally drive you nuts with drone. A twin turbo 5.0 still has a nasty rumble to it.
Quote:
Reliability
In general, superchargers enjoy a substantial reliability advantage over the turbocharger. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. In addition, many turbos require aftermarket exhaust manifolds, which are often far less reliable than stock manifolds.
Well that’s remedied with the 1001 different turbo timers out there, and a decent oil cooler. With proper maint it will live just as long as a SC. If you’re burning one up every couple of years then you’re also rebuilding that motor right along with it due to your improper maintenance activities.
Quote:
Ease of Installation
Superchargers are substantially easier to install than a turbos because they have far fewer components and simpler devices. Turbos are complex and require manifold and exhaust modifications, intercoolers, extra oil lines, etc. - most of which is not needed with most superchargers. A novice home mechanic can easily install most supercharger systems, while a turbo installation should be left to a turbo expert.
Ok he finally got one right! But im not sure any novice should be installing anything that requires tuning by them selves
Quote:
Maximum Power Output
Turbos are known for their unique ability to spin to incredibly high rpms and make outrages peak boost figures (25psi+). While operating a turbocharger at very high levels of boost requires major modifications to the rest of the engine, the turbo is capable of producing more peak power than superchargers.
As will any type of forced injection including nitrous
Quote:
Tunability
Turbochargers, because they are so complex and rely on exhaust pressure, are notoriously difficult to tune. Superchargers, on the other hand, require few fuel and ignition upgrades and normally require little or no engine tuning.
Im sorry I can’t take it any more. This guy is a moron. Any power adder takes a good amount of tuning to operate at max efficiency. It doesn’t matter if it’s a turbo a SC or Nitrous. Even your high compression NA motor, you need tuning. None of them are any harder to tune if the proper needs are identified and the proper parts are spec’d for your goals”
Quote:
Conclusion
While the supercharger is generally considered to be a better method of forced induction for most street and race vehicles, the turbo will always have its place in a more specialized market. Superchargers generally provide a much broader powerband that most drivers are looking for with no "turbo lag". In addition, they are much easier to install and tune, making them more practical for a home or novice mechanic.
Im sorry but a turbo has just as high a power band as a SC if not high due to efficiency of a turbo in the higher RPM range) Most centrifugal SC’s in street trim will not peak anywhere near a properly spec’d turbo.
Quote:
We hope you have found this discussion informative and unbiased. Sometimes when we explain this to our customers, they say that we are biased towards superchargers because that is all we carry. We remind those customers that a turbo is a kind of supercharger and that we truly hope to carry turbochargers someday. The reason we do not currently sell any turbochargers is because we have not yet found a turbo system that is suitable for mail-order / e-commerce sale. We are not prepared to sell a turbo system that is difficult to install and requires the attention of a professional engine tuner or mechanic. If any turbocharger manufacturer makes such a system, please send us the details as we would love to carry such a product.
I do think this is biased to superchargers due to the fact that all that is mentioned is that a turbo is for niche group of customers. I assume he is referring to racing applications. I do agree that there are barely any Turbo systems that are properly spec’d for mail order or ecommerce and if you’re buying one this way then you probably shouldn’t be purchasing one in the first place. HP turbo systems are probably one the only turbo companies that gets really close. Like any system that’s for forced air applications you should be closely working with the manufacturer to meet you needs and expectations with what you goals are.
j
__________________
2004 mustang gt
Update: JLT CAI, SLP LM2 catback,
Parts in the basement : To much to list. heres a hint..it involves a watts link and turbos.
talons are 4 cyclinders, is it even possible to supercharge a 4 cyclinder? i dont know about that. i would suppose. but why would you want to? anyway, your example is weak. the new 03 cobra is supercharged boys , not turbocharged. not to mention saleen's and roush's..shinoda boss. but i suppose steve saleen and jack roush should of used turbo's, they dont know jack about cars as it turns out.....?? piece.
Um did you talk to them all personally, because alot of it is cost. Superchargers are more simple to install and require less work as well. The are more cost efficient for those companies as well.
It starts to get really difficult to create cars that are 50 state street legal with turbo systems. You have to start sacrificing a lot of things that really make the turbo system put out good power. So street ability is the biggest thing.
Sure they can do it but a supercharger is a better way to go for a street legal car. Now if emissions is not your thing then a Turbo system is 100% the best way to go.
They run off of waste not your block. Even though the power rob from a supercharger is small it is still robbing your power.
I have never seen a supercharger out perform a turbo car. Sure a Procharger F1R will smoke a T67 turbo but if you get apples to apples The turbo will be able to make much more power.
If you are looking for just a car to drive on the street Twin Screw is your best bet, but if you are looking for a high horse power monster a turbo is far superior.
I my self am a Procharger fan but 700rwhp is the most i would want to go so that suits me fine.
I think after reading some of the post on here I just was robbed of some IQ points. People that say turbos are unreliable, lets use some simple reasoning, how many cars are out there that come stock with turbos? Do you think all these can manufactures are building cars with something that isn't going to last? Turbos just like any other type of boost device can be ABUSED. As mentioned above, if you do not know how to tune a car, or the resources to do so, then you have no business owning a car the requires tuning. Turbos are safer for a motor then any type of supercharger. Yes there are pros and cons to any mod you put on a car. If yo have a daily driver and stock bottom end then use your head and dont try to put 15-25psi on it. Not to mention with that much boost you should be using 115+ octane. There are a lot of stupid people out there that will try this, and they frag their motor and wonder why it happened. I have 140,000 on a stock motor, and if I had the $5k, I would put a turbo on it tomorrow, with 8psi. I am also a big fan of the Prochargers for the street I believe you cant beat the D1SC with the 3 core inter-cooler (for a supercharger that is). As for turbos, I would go with the HP Performance single or TT kits. I have done years of research and dreaming to do it right. Kenny bell also makes a good kit, but I dont know if I would put one on a 5.0, they are better suited for 4.6, mainly a direct replacement for the 03-04 Cobras blower. I would rather run a turbo on a daily driver with the proper set-up any day. But be aware of the cons of a turbo, heat being the biggest one. Turbos use boost less on the street then a SC unless your right foot is calling for boost. If you do not have enough exhaust gas flowing to turn the turbines, then you do not have boost, on a SC it is always turning. As far as turbo lag, it largely depends on your hot side and cold side set up. If you think you can put a t-4 hot, with a 80mm cold with a stock motor and not expect some sort of lag, then think again. Get your set up right. Turbos are also more customizable to you needs. You might have a 60mm turbo today, and you get a new stroker motor, higher flowing heads, and need a bigger turbo, well just buy a new turbo for $800 and dont need to replace all the plumbing or anything else. A SC you need to buy a new kit. If you have a daily driver and run 5-8psi on the street, with a turbo, and decide to use race gas you can bump it up to 15-20 psi at the track. So, unless you know something about turbos and have some knowledgeable input, then please dont post. You ignorance annoys people. No I do not know everything about turbos, or superchargers or claim to, but I do know enough to build a SAFE, RELIABLE car with either of them. I will now step off the podium. lol
__________________
93 triple white Limited Edition. 17" Cobra "R"s, Cobra "R" hood, 180* thermo, Steeda Tri-Axe, white faced gauges, Phantom monster tach, 73mm calipers, with slotted fronts rotors, all Alpine stereo equipment, so, still stock (for now)...
"The only easy day was yesterday"
"That which does not kill you only makes you stronger"
"The early bird gets the worm, the 2nd mouse gets the cheese"
"Freedom isn't Free"
Hey, what up. Im still pretty new to this site, but I just read some of this post. As far as people talking supercharger or turbo, and the fact cars that come from the factory that are turbo are faster then any of the sc cars. All cars that are turbo from factory are also imports all th sc are domestic. Theres a reason for that. American engineers arnt dumb. american cars are also heavy. Now everyone wants a turbo in an american car.When i think of turbo i think of a rice rocket. What about longevity? I see way more turbo going out , rebuilt. This is just my opinion, not saying im right. I have a powerdyne. any opinions?
here is the way I look at it. weekend warrior/ show car purely recreational..I say go with roots type/whipple. mildto wild drag car centri or kenne belle. all out drag car, serious dragster I would go with a turbo set up. Just my .02$
__________________
2005 BLACK Mustang GT Roush #05-0090 of 204 M5,
Vortech V3, 39lbers, KB BAP,
Brisk plugs, Billet Delete plates,
Mac Lt's, Off road x, stage 2 thumprs,
phaser limiters, Brenspeed tune,
Roush short throw, relocated IAT.
here is the way I look at it. weekend warrior/ show car purely recreational..I say go with roots type/whipple. mildto wild drag car centri or kenne belle. all out drag car, serious dragster I would go with a turbo set up. Just my .02$
I agree with you 110% on a S197 car, but not for a fox. S197 take very well to whipple chargers. Foxes tend to like centripetal a bit more. I will agree that any amount or any type of boost will wake up your car, and could be a hellva ride with it. I am just saying my opinion on the subject. Yes I have done extensive research and have learned from my friends and their trial and error. Any type of boost in MODERATION is good, and not harmful. Key word is moderation.
__________________
93 triple white Limited Edition. 17" Cobra "R"s, Cobra "R" hood, 180* thermo, Steeda Tri-Axe, white faced gauges, Phantom monster tach, 73mm calipers, with slotted fronts rotors, all Alpine stereo equipment, so, still stock (for now)...
"The only easy day was yesterday"
"That which does not kill you only makes you stronger"
"The early bird gets the worm, the 2nd mouse gets the cheese"
"Freedom isn't Free"
.gif "Happy")
