If this is not the correct location for this thread, please excuse me for I am a newbi here and feel free to forward this to the right location........
That said: I want to build an all out Import Killer (road racer style not drags) and I'm considering using a late model Mustang. While I don't want to break the bank I am looking at a budget of around $40-50K.
Things that are of first concern are:
a) How light can you get a striped chassis down to? I've heard of the Pro-Road racing teams acid dipping there tubs before they put the rollcages in. I plan on only running 2 seats and a sparse racing style interior. As an example: a tricked out Nissan 240SX can weigh as little as 2300 LBS while using a 500HP turbo engine.
b) I understand the last year cars suffered from chassis flex when you put in a big motor. Besides the obvious of putting a full gage in the tub, what other weight saving stiffening items would you recommend? FYI: I plan on having an all Aluminum 351ci-plus stroker motor built that will make over 500LBS of torque.
c) What kind of weight distribution do they have? If not 50% front/50% rear, is there room at the firewall to move the engine back a few inches? Is there any other ideas that would improve the front to rear weight issue?
d) Does anybody make Carbon Fiber/Light weight fenders/hoods/doors etc. for these cars?
e) You've all seen the "racing/German Touring Car Series" look of the Ricer cars. To beat them at their own game, I want that look as well, i.e., Pulled fenders, nose splitter, rear wing, rear defuser, etc., Any ideas who makes this kind of stuff?
f) I want this thing to have the basic look of a Trans-AM Series race car. What kind of Suspension mods would have to be done to get it down that low and still have a functional suspension travel?
g) I've thought of starting out with an Ex-Grand AM Cup or A-Sedan race car since a professionally built one should have a lot of the desirable mods already done. However the car obviously would have already had a very hard life..........
I know this is a lot of questions, but I've been "google searching" for days and I'm coming up with blanks. I would appriciate any and all help with any one or all of these questions. Thanks you for your time and or referal to other note worthy sites....
I hate to say it, but with up to 50 grand, just buy a ZO6 or even a Cobra and make minor upgrades. With that much money, I think I could nearly make a tricycle better than the average "quick" or nimble "ricer" on a road course, AND on the dragstrip.
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'87 coupe- 408W stroker
TFS "R" Stage II heads
Comp Solid Roller cam
forged everything
etc etc.
I hate to say it, but with up to 50 grand, just buy a ZO6 or even a Cobra and make minor upgrades. With that much money, I think I could nearly make a tricycle better than the average "quick" or nimble "ricer" on a road course, AND on the dragstrip.
Rob:
I've seen 240SX's with a few suspension mods, sticky tires and a big turbo (meaning 500+HP) destroy Z06's AND unsuspecting Cobras.
Remember besides HP, on a road coarse weight (or lack there of) is king. These cats have got Carbon body parts and many other weight saving pieces as well.
Add to that, I don't think they've got more than $25K into them........ There's got to be a way to build an American car that can hang with them, isn't there?
Been doing more homework and I've started to see a few trends:
1) After searching the American Iron/Camaro-Mustang Challenge sites it seems it takes a fare-bit more cash to get a Mustang to "handle" as well as the Chevy's.
2) Even after you add the K-Member and all the corresponding trick suspension "goodies," the ride height and therefore the center of gravity is higher on a Ford than a Camaro. Not necessarily good for cornering............
3) The Mustang seems to have inherently more nose weight than does the Camaro? Is that one of the reasons it's tougher to get it to work as well "around corners"?
I've seen where some K-Members move the motor back 1-inch. Is that all there is room for? To improve front/rear weight distribution.
Does anyone have personal knoweledge of the weight #'s of a World Challenge or an American Iron Mustange?
(BTW, these statements mean NO Disrespect to you hard core Ford guys. There just inquiries so that I build the best car possible. So please, don't flame me)
I haven't seen a 240SX with anywhere near 500hp, much less more. Besides, the turbo required to get that teeny weenie engine to make that much power would also make it useless on a road course because it would simply never be able to get the hampsters running quickly enough out of corners. While getting the HP is probably not so far-fetched, it's something more in line with drag racing, not corner carving.
If you wanna learn more about how well Mustangs can handle or work well on road courses, I'd look into Steeda or Kenny Brown equipment. The K-members available can allow to move the engine back a bit, but there isn't much room to start with, and not much is needed to make the weight split work pretty well. The ride height can be as low as about 1-2" off the ground with the proper suspension setup.
While I'm not into road racing much, I read here and there. That said, the money needed to make something like a 240SX capable of running with the likes of a ZO6 would make building a 240 a waste of time. There are, afterall, parts available for the ZO6 as well, and it's already got a "perfect" weight distribution, so nothing is needed there. There's no need for a turbo, or any other power adder, but they're available if wanted. I wouldn't embarrass an enemy by suggesting he race a 240SX against a ZO6 on any course, at any time, for any reason. It would just be mean. I doubt I'd even consider racing a new Cobra in such a car.
As for Americans making cars that good, there's the ZO6(proven many times over), the Viper(hardly beaten at all), the S7(world reknowned already-albeit extremely pricey), and the new Ford GT, a cakewalk against most cars for less money than any that beat it.
I think what you're looking for is a Y2K Cobra R. It's got everything you're looking for. Otherwise, if you try and build what you're describing, you're looking at upwards of $30k worth of parts alone. Not to mention any labor charges you might need to shell out.
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"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
RobW:
Thanks for your valuable thoughts.
Understand that I'm not an "import guy" (my first driving championship was a self-built autoXing 63 Falcon that thought it was a GT350, i.e.: 10' slicks/9' rear/fiberglass body parts, etc.), but I can tell you what I've seen and that is imports putting down all kinds of HP and sending more than a few big bores back to the midnight-ATM looking for more cash. What they lack though is torque and that's where I think I can bury them.
As a side note: remember back in the 70's, the front engined Mustang GTP Zakespeed car was a 4 cyl that reportedly made 1000HP (historians out there please correct me if wrong). The Drivers said in pit lane it was like driving a Pinto right up until the turbo came in, then it was like somebody hit you in the back of the head with a 2x4. Also the Renault F1 Turbo car of the same era made over 1300 in qualifying trim. In other words, don't be surprised by these little "hamsters" making big #'s.-----Not defending them, just saying what I'm looking to go up against..........
Getting past all that AND race stats of what-won-what-race-where, the thing is if you throw sanctioning body rules away, can I build a Mustang (in a cost effective manner) that will out handle the F-Body and Vette's and be light enough to handle the "twisty's" like the Imports? Or is a push between a good Camaro and a good Mustang (dollar for dollar)? I don't want to spend the $40K on a ZO6 or a Viper and then have to start my mods from there. I believe a good AIX Camaro or Mustang will handle both of those cars for less money anyway.
I've come to understand that back when they raced against each other in World Challenge, you had to do more to prep a Mustang than you did for a Camaro. And now with AIX it seems pretty even? Or is it?
Perhaps "wilit" has the idea is best: start with a Cobra and upgrade. My thought is though; if your going to go to your favorite after market company (Steeda, KB, MM, etc.), stripping the factory parts and put all their stuff in it, would you be better off:
a) Starting with a plain V8/Manual tub there by not wasting good "Cobra" parts/$$$
OR
b) Start with an ex-World Challenge car and mod from there?
In the end it's all about winning for the least amount of money possible.......... Thanks again......
Overall, if I was searching for the road course end, and meant to win, I'd definitely look at the Corvette more intensely(and intently) than a "pony" car. They cost more initially, but the factory inherent balance along with the lower weight makes up for a lot of things. The Mustang and Camaro could be made to handle on those lines, but not without serious thought and upgrades. You'd also need to upgrade the engine in either if you're to outrun the Vette. As for the imports, you'd really need to dump big money into basically any in order to run with a C5, let alone a ZO6. It's not just that thousands would be needed to get the necessary power, but the overall maintenance costs are extremely high.
Is this going to be a race car only?..... Or a dual pupose street/ opentracker?
If it is Race only.... no question a used race car is a bargain and a half.
Do you do your own welding? Fabricating? Have you settled on a series... NASA, IMSA, SCCA, etc...
Go over the rules with a fine tooth comb, before you decide.
Knowing the rules inside and out wil be the most important piece of advice I can give you.
Good luck!
I plan on doing street/opentrack with my mystichrome
Jimmy
RobW: Working with a Vette is like back when we messed with 944T's, everything you want for them has a "Vette surcharge" attached to it. It's total BS. My goals are to do this as cheaply as possible. I mean I want to beat these import guys at their own game. They love it when a Turbo'd $25K Nissan beats up on more expensive American Iron. I've seen it happen more times than I can count. It's like back in the 80's when I new guys that built VW's that would carry the front wheels in 3rd gear. They'd just cruise town looking for Camaro & Stang guys with more testosterone than HP. Besides, bring a fully done Vette might be looked upon as bringing a gun to a knife fight. There's just no honor in that. As for the Motor, that's the least of my worries. I've got a 600HP 351 sitting here 20 feet from me. However for this project I'll build a lightweight aluminum Torque monster for coming off the bottom........
Jimmy: This will be.......hmmmm call it a dual purpose car. It will have a plate on it....... Lets just say it's all about the money.......... Gotta win or go broke....... Yes, we're doing all our own fab work...... I think when this is all said and done it will fall in the AIX category.......
You want an aluminum blocked engine for a road course car? That's what I call gutsy! Or at least you're going for it. Aluminum 351W based engines are very much over the limit for a budget like mine, that's for sure. Knowing a thing or two about the 351W, it simply makes way too much torque(for road racing) when stroked. I've only spoken to a few guys who've done it, but each of them went back to a 331 in short order.
I don't see much additional cost to build a Corvette either. It's not at all like a Porsche in the price department. Heck, to get a Porsche that even considers being close competition to the ZO6, you'd already have to dish out at least $100,000 and was we know, that's twice the price of the ZO6. The reasoning here is simple: The Corvette is almost race finished as sold. That means less cost overall. A used ZO6 can be had for 35K or so, I'm told. Comparing a late model F-body to that tells a story. Stock, the Vette cost more. Making the F-body keep up anywhere except a straightline though, well THAT'S gonna costya. Same can be said against an import. Most that can run with a factory stock ZO6 in any type of competition, road, drag, top end, have much more cash into them than the average owner would contemplate admitting. I recently read about a Hyundai Excel that had a claimed $2,500 in it overall. A quick look at the turbo system warranted asking what that was worth. Alone, it was $3,277(so we were told). The engine/transmission came from some other foreign jobber, and it too, was highly modified. There were about $1,000 in guages stuck in the dash too. The was a HYUNDAI for cryin' out loud! The fella had a solid $5,000 in parts alone without ever considering the engine itself.
Nice project you have there and considering you already have a nice engine the thing is how to make the most of the crappy Mustang weight distribution and suspension.
Weight distribution:
1) Move the engine 1" backward with the correct K member.
2) Move the front tires forward, just as Ford did with the GR500. This will involve some work on the fenders.
Suspension:
1) REAR: The big thing here is where to go: a SLA IRS or keep a rigid axle, you will need a very tough IRS if you go this route.
a) IRS: You need a good source for that IRS, the newer 03 Cobra is fine but can it handle the stress?? might have to be upgraded to Cobra R specs or look elsewhere maybe Jaguar IRS (Some Cobra 427 replicas go this route).
b) RIGID: there are some proven designs, Panhard/Torque Arms work great but might not be enough for what you want. The best in the field is MaximumMotorsports, Steeda and Saleen.
2) FRONT, big headache, the modified McPearson suspension in the mustang SUCKS, the best would be to go with a short arm/long arm design with coilovers. This would be a tough one, requiring to fabricate upper arm mounts and modifying the full arrangement. Probably best sourced from other car (BMW maybe?, its a compact design) or fabricate (which will require tons of knowledge).
Weight loss:
1) Carbon Fiber and reinforced fiberglass, there are many vendors that have at least the hood and fenders, any of which might be able to fabricate other pieces for you. Else look for a good shop to do it, there are tons in the boat industry.
2) Lexan all around
Reinforcement & Safety:
1) Spec rollcage, get the best and lightest
Aerodynamics:
This is a big issue, maybe go for the likes of a Saleen widebody kit (air tunnel tested)
My approach would be to get a BARE body, basically start from scratch.
I haven't seen a 240SX with anywhere near 500hp, much less more. Besides, the turbo required to get that teeny weenie engine to make that much power would also make it useless on a road course because it would simply never be able to get the hampsters running quickly enough out of corners. While getting the HP is probably not so far-fetched, it's something more in line with drag racing, not corner carving.
If you wanna learn more about how well Mustangs can handle or work well on road courses, I'd look into Steeda or Kenny Brown equipment. The K-members available can allow to move the engine back a bit, but there isn't much room to start with, and not much is needed to make the weight split work pretty well. The ride height can be as low as about 1-2" off the ground with the proper suspension setup.
While I'm not into road racing much, I read here and there. That said, the money needed to make something like a 240SX capable of running with the likes of a ZO6 would make building a 240 a waste of time. There are, afterall, parts available for the ZO6 as well, and it's already got a "perfect" weight distribution, so nothing is needed there. There's no need for a turbo, or any other power adder, but they're available if wanted. I wouldn't embarrass an enemy by suggesting he race a 240SX against a ZO6 on any course, at any time, for any reason. It would just be mean. I doubt I'd even consider racing a new Cobra in such a car.
As for Americans making cars that good, there's the ZO6(proven many times over), the Viper(hardly beaten at all), the S7(world reknowned already-albeit extremely pricey), and the new Ford GT, a cakewalk against most cars for less money than any that beat it.
Building a Ricer Stomper. Any Ideas? 
I doubt I'd even consider racing a new Cobra in such a car.
