Cent Supercharger vs. Turbo vs. Twin Screw Supercharger
I was considering putting either a turbo or supercharger kit onto my 02 V6. But I dont know which one is better. Also, do they make and can a twin screw supercharger fit onto my car?
I was considering putting either a turbo or supercharger kit onto my 02 V6. But I dont know which one is better. Also, do they make and can a twin screw supercharger fit onto my car?
Thanks
OK, I don't know of a twin screw for the 3.8 (no reason Eaton/Whipple or KB couldn't make one, though).
Turbochargers typically produce more high end power than superchargers, but the cost and complexity of the install is a concern. A twin turbo rig would be really interesting, and relatively rare on a 3.8, but would cost about twice what a single centrifugal supercharger costs. The install would be more difficult than the supercharger, too.
I would recommend a centrifugal supercharger with independent lubricating system.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
I've heard that the turbocharger is better because it builds power faster in both lower and higher rpm's that a supercharger does
A positive displacement supercharger (ie, the twin screw the OP mentioned) is hard to beat from a get-go. Low end torque production is, after all, its specialty.
Turbochargers which are downsized to lessen low end lag give up their upper end power in order to do so - unless a two-step system is utilized, with dual (or quad) turbochargers - a small one for quick response at the lower rpm registers, and a larger one to take over when the little one runs out of steam. This is already being used in some trucks.
My comments about cost and complexity, of course, would go DOUBLE for a dual/stepped turbo setup, much less a quad.
Turbochargers can be hard on catalytic converters when added to a car never designed for turbos, so be advised. If you need to continue to pass emissions, give some thought to that portion of the exhaust system.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Street car? Street with the rare strip adventure? Road racer? Drag strip?
And with that...
What is your budget?
We hear this same sort of question all the time.
"Ultimate" performance requires "ultimate" money.
I tend to agree that, at the highest drag strip level, the turbochargers are the way to go - particularly for a smaller motor.
The twin turbo rig I want for my own car runs about $12,000 installed. The reason its NOT on the car is my unfortunate lack of the $12,000.
A nice, standard centrifugal blower rig will cost closer to $5000.
Then there are all sorts of options in between, and some really fun concepts that would go well north of my $12,000 barrier...
All of them have advantages and drawbacks. The twin turbo tuned for all-out racing would be a hard-tol-live-with beast on the street, whereas a solid tune and a mild intercooled blower might be a great street ride - but come up short at the strip against cars purpose-built for the drags.
Positive displacement superchargers are gangbusters from very low rpms, which is what makes them a great choice for a daily driver, since the bulk of normal street driving occurs in the lower rpm registers. Centrifugal superchargers come into their own around 4000 rpms, with a nice run to the car's limit, when a sane person sets their rev limiter lower than the spot where the valves start floating and the non-forged internals start to warp! Turbocharged engines usually display similar properties to their Centrifugal cousins, hitting their stride in the middle-rpm range, then whooshing quickly to their peak.
Those focused solely on what happens at the drag strip are little concerned with what happens below 4000 rpms, since they are driving cars an eighth or quarter mile at a time.
Really, the decision starts with money and the budget, and what sort of performance goal the car is being constructed to meet.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
So your saying that a tubo gives you good power from low to about 3k rpm's?
I'm saying that trying to get a turbo system to do all things at all levels in a street car is complicated, and expensive.
Most modern turbocharged cars are smaller motors that rev freely and have a high redline to start with. This extra headroom allows the benefits of the turbocharger at high rpms to really shine.
Most stock turbo rigs are designed to work well within a certain range - and that range has an upper and particularly a lower limit. Its possible to make a 100 hp motor turn out 300 hp with a turbo, but it has to be rebuilt to stand the strain - and the motor's performance at lower rpms is sacrificed while the turbocharger spools up to speeds where it becomes efficient (lag).
In a situation such as a drag race where the initial start is done from a high rpm level purposely WITHIN the sweet spot for the turbo, this is not a problem. In real world driving, flooring the pedal and watching the engine add rpms until the turbo cuts in can be irritating.
The turbos (like the WRX crowd) designed to do double duty as daily drivers and strong performers are tuned and sized the hit their design goals - and as the cars are upgraded with stronger motors and turbos, their performance curves shift upward, leaving less for the daily drive range and more for the rocket shot at the drag strip.
Turbos are more efficient than superchargers WITHIN their design envelopes, but they are inherently weak below 3000 rpms (while positive displacement blowers, like large displacement motors in general, are great at producing gobs of torque at those same levels that are the weakest for the turbos and centrifugal blowers).
Only the user can say which set of cirucmstances best match their goals.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
You can get a used s/c kit for 1800-2200$ add another 400$ for a dyno tune 300$ for injectors 150$ for a fuel pump and be off. A new price on a kit ranges form 3400 to VMPs 4000$ procharger kit with everything you need + dyno tune files.
You can get a single turbo system for 3500$ and a twin kit for around 6grand. Then add that 400 for a dyno/300injectors/150fuepump$
You can get an eaton m112 kit for 2800$ and then add the fuel mods price & tuning.
And with turbos you can have several tunes and an electronic or manual boost controller. Go from a street tune of 7psi to 15psi race tune and then right back into a street tune.
2002 GT. NOT the only car I've ever owned, though. Unlike some other folks, I am NOT prejudiced against V6 cars, in fact, I might just build a turbo 6 as my next project (restomod). Or an SVO of some kind. Pics in my gallery, or you can just hit the dollar sign and get some more details...
Be smart with used blowers. If you do buy one, consider spending a little more and having it overhauled at the factory (most will do this for a reasonable fee). This is particularly true with the cheaper and more common brands which use hot oil sucked from a hole driven in the engine's oil pan. If the engine dies from lack of oil, that means the blower was sucking sludge at the same time, too. Lots of used parts come from this. Not saying you can't find good deals, but the Latins say it all with 'caveat emptor" (buyer beware). I always assume any used parts I buy may be in need of renovation before putting them in service.
No doubt, its also possible to buy some generic stainless tubing, some ebay turbos, a BOV, and so on, and cobble together your own turbo kit, too. I don't recommend it, its a LOT harder to get everything working correctly and sized correctly than one might think. Ebay has some remarkably cheap seperate parts out there, "turbos a la carte", so to speak. Don't know anyone who's constructed one and put them on their cars, but hey, it could be fun to see pics and results!
HP and Helion are two turbo kit makers to consider. The numbers 232 is mentioning sound very realistic to me, though a lot depends on how complete or ambitious the kit is. I like two: The HP kits that include such things as coil overs, tubular A's, tubular K's, and all the exhaust bits - or the newer Squire remote turbo kits. I believe a large single turbo installation might be the best buy for a strip V6 car, although the twins are certainly worth the money (assuming you have the money).
Tuning turbos CAN be tricky, so allow plenty of dyno time with a skilled turbo tuner as soon as you put the car together.
I'm not a fan of the M112 kits for GTs - do they also have them for the V6, 232? For all the work that goes into such an installation, I would hold out for a twin-screw, KB or Eaton-based either one. The new Eaton "twin vortice" units coming out via Whipple and MagnaCharger are nice, though I still think they are a little behind Kenne Bell in performance. This might be off-topic, though, unless they them for the V6.
Multiple tunes is a good idea, with any boost-source, if street/strip is the goal. Racing gas tunes can also be stored digitally and downloaded as needed via a handheld tuner.
LOL, another long theoretical discussion (pretty much the same as the last one) without any idea what sort of car is being built or for what purpose!
More search engine resources.
PS: Here's a link to a nice ProCharger kit, About $4100 including stuff you will need (kit is pretty naked until you go through their options) and pay shipping. Installation is extra, of course. http://www.rpmoutlet.com/musv6ati.htm
Used parts I'll leave up to the Ebay mavens. Good way to save money, no doubt about it. ALSO, RPM Outlet can be a good place to price stuff, but their customer service has problems. Be advised. Other sources might match their price (many do).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 232Stang
I'm not sure what tripple black drives but..
You can get a used s/c kit for 1800-2200$ add another 400$ for a dyno tune 300$ for injectors 150$ for a fuel pump and be off. A new price on a kit ranges form 3400 to VMPs 4000$ procharger kit with everything you need + dyno tune files.
You can get a single turbo system for 3500$ and a twin kit for around 6grand. Then add that 400 for a dyno/300injectors/150fuepump$
You can get an eaton m112 kit for 2800$ and then add the fuel mods price & tuning.
And with turbos you can have several tunes and an electronic or manual boost controller. Go from a street tune of 7psi to 15psi race tune and then right back into a street tune.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Yes, Super Six Motorsports as well as one or two other people now offer the adapter plate that will allow the M112 to fit onto the 3.8/4.2L engines. They are good for about 270+rwhp on the stock engines. The adapter plate costs around 900 from SSM plus the cost of the M112 and the other small parts you need. It is a very good upgrade for the Split-port V6's, especially if you have upgraded to the 4.2L.
Helion?
Were talking about v6 mustangs here. None of these big v8 guys make stuff for the 99-04 v6s.
And oil fed s/c > self contained any day of the week. Their are enough arguments on more technical forums so I won't even go into that.
You're right, neither Hellion or HP currently market mass kits to V6 owners, but I'm thinking that will soon change. In any event, I referenced them as examples of what complete kits should look like and as sources of information, vs the ebay part sellers, for instance. Obviously as a GT owner I've examined those options in the past - though I'm now doing more research as regards V6 cars. With Ford moving quickly toward turbocharged V6s and away from V8s, its the future. As for talking to companies expert in Mustang turbocharging, its often the "early adopters" who get special pricing - I've been talking with all three about the idea of developing products for the Mustang V6 family. A self-serving project, given the fact that I'm thinking of going that route myself.
Squire is most receptive, which makes sense, they use smaller turbos in "remote" locations designed for street performance.
I found ProCharger's white paper (http://www.procharger.com/superchargers.shtml ) comparing results most compelling, but then, everything is subject to interpretation, even scientific research (just look at the Global Warming flap). As for the advantages of one oiling system over another, I would say that this is one where we can agree to disagree.
Anyone with doubts shouild ALWAYS do your own research, and reach your own conclusions. Posts on a thread are a good starting place, but find the source and go there to see for yourself - best investment in the world is the time one spends upgrading what's between the ears. Polling the group's opinions is fun, and yields data, but more extensive investigation would be a good idea before dropping the hammer and writing checks. Its one reason I spend time at AFM, learning from the smart folks here, but also looking for links to data that comes from the professionals out there working every day creating the technology we use in our cars.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Last edited by tripleblack; 07-21-2008 at 12:35 PM.
Yes, Super Six Motorsports as well as one or two other people now offer the adapter plate that will allow the M112 to fit onto the 3.8/4.2L engines. They are good for about 270+rwhp on the stock engines. The adapter plate costs around 900 from SSM plus the cost of the M112 and the other small parts you need. It is a very good upgrade for the Split-port V6's, especially if you have upgraded to the 4.2L.
Interesting. I think I'd like the M112 better on a V6 than the V8. M112's are plentiful and relatively cheap... But the results are a rather modest improvement in power for the money ($900 is a big chunk of the cost, of course). Given that some of the twin screws would fit on the same adapter plate, I wonder if anyone has gone that direction? Probably not - most of the KB's and TV's are pretty large, 2.1s and bigger - might not mesh well with the smaller motor. Eaton makes smaller TVs, they are in active use over in GMland. Might be something there. Interesting idea, though.
I see your point about the 4.2 - I was just looking at the 4.2 at a site that specializes in them. Strong engine, and the size would mesh better than the 3.8 with the positive displacement M112. Definitely a good candidate for a daily driver. Good street car. I didn't bookmark the site, does anyone have good sources for the 4.2 parts?
I have a 4.2 in my 97 F150. Strong performance, lots of torque. Does surprisingly well for a V6 in a full size pickup. Totally different application, of course.
Links: http://www.moranav6racing.com/catego...?CategoryID=16
Morana has a nice 4.0/4.2/4.3 stroker here. Looks like an alternative for the more serious. If I go this route, it will be with an old 99 (cheap) and I'll be replacing everything anyway. The other alternative would be picking up someone else's similar project, either complete or otherwise, and I'm never that lucky. I did see a twin turbo V6 for sale in New Jersey for a fair price last year, but that one is long gone of course.
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/ Here is that $900 adapter plate. Looks like it adds some height to the engine package. Interesting site, I may have to talk to them about my truck.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Cent Supercharger vs. Turbo vs. Twin Screw Supercharger 
