Elevation change to the tune - Ford Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-22-2018 Thread Starter
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Elevation change to the tune

I've gone from 2000 feet to 4600 feet and obviously the car is running too rich. I have an SCT tuner but does anyone have a chart/graph that shows how much to lean the mixture so I'm not bogging so badly?


Also the temperature up here in Grand Junction Colorado is hovering around 100 so it's the worst possible combination of factors. I hate my car now. Suddenly I feel like I'm driving a V-6 rental... :-( Which, if there's a hell, that's what I'll be driving.


2006 Black, GT, spoiler delete, five speed, leather, custom welded straight pipes with resonators, sequential turn signals, Hurst Pro Performance shifter. FRPP 4.10s with Motive bearing kit, Spydershaft one piece aluminum driveshaft, w/ Spicer 1330 U-joints, Steeda UCA and LCAs, chrome moly panhard rod. bye bye wheel hop, hello traction! SCT XCalII, BBK CAI, ZEX 100 shot.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-22-2018
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Originally Posted by JetBlack View Post
I've gone from 2000 feet to 4600 feet and obviously the car is running too rich. I have an SCT tuner but does anyone have a chart/graph that shows how much to lean the mixture so I'm not bogging so badly?


Also the temperature up here in Grand Junction Colorado is hovering around 100 so it's the worst possible combination of factors. I hate my car now. Suddenly I feel like I'm driving a V-6 rental... :-( Which, if there's a hell, that's what I'll be driving.

For what it's worth, it may not be the tune that is to blame. High temp and high altitude....recipe for no power. Your MAF sensor and computer should compensate for these conditions and still give a good A/F ratio but physics says less power in these conditions. Get a turbo or supercharge and you're all good.


Have you datalogged with your SCT to check your air/fuel number? It should be the same as what it was set for at the lower altitude. Is the computer pulling timing because of the high temps? Any vacuum leaks? All would contribute. It would be safer to rule these out before intentionally leaning your fuel tables.


Good luck. Sucks when the car feels too slow. All the best to you in fixing this.


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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-22-2018
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In general, there is something else amiss.....as the oem software is designed to modify the fuel mixture 25%..... more than enough to accommodate that slight elevation change....when you exceed an altitude/elevation of 8K, then there is a specific software update that the oem has for that.


FYI- for each 1k foot elevation increase, typically for gas engines, there is a reduction of power (hp/tq) of approximately 5%...this is one of the few situations where boosted engines have an automatic advantage over NA engines.

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-22-2018
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Motors can be adjusted to run better at higher altitudes. It's done with carbureted engines, it can be done with modern engines and I believe your experiencing those effects even at almost 5k ft.
I like the idea of dataloging or check out some local dyno shops. Personally, I would feel better leaving the tunning to the professionals rather than messing with the A/F on my handheld.
I lived in Dillon for a while. It was interesting driving up there with a 72 Torino. Lol. Hell, even foods are packaged specifically for high altitude cooking.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 07-25-2018 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by marylandGT View Post
Motors can be adjusted to run better at higher altitudes. It's done with carbureted engines, it can be done with modern engines and I believe your experiencing those effects even at almost 5k ft.
I like the idea of dataloging or check out some local dyno shops. Personally, I would feel better leaving the tunning to the professionals rather than messing with the A/F on my handheld.
I lived in Dillon for a while. It was interesting driving up there with a 72 Torino. Lol. Hell, even foods are packaged specifically for high altitude cooking.
I miss Colorado......beautiful!!!

Hey there Pasadena, I grew up in Severna Park :-)



I'll put it in third on the highway and ease the pedal down to see if I can get a decent reading from the A/F gauge and see if I need to make a change. With the rear O2 sensors turned off and the stock tune replaced with the SCT tune, I'm not sure the car is adapting to the change in oxygen levels in the air as well as it would with a stock tune. We'll see.


When the temps drop into the 80s it drives much nicer so maybe my only real issue is with the temps. Black car + 100 degree temperatures make for sluggish performance. It really bogs between idle and about 2500, like it's running massively rich.

2006 Black, GT, spoiler delete, five speed, leather, custom welded straight pipes with resonators, sequential turn signals, Hurst Pro Performance shifter. FRPP 4.10s with Motive bearing kit, Spydershaft one piece aluminum driveshaft, w/ Spicer 1330 U-joints, Steeda UCA and LCAs, chrome moly panhard rod. bye bye wheel hop, hello traction! SCT XCalII, BBK CAI, ZEX 100 shot.
I've written a book or two. Google David Buschhorn to laugh at my scribblings.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018 Thread Starter
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At WOT I'm at 13.3 A:F. It's running a little rich, but probably not plug-fouling rich. I need to make about a 4% change.



I'll change the WOT mix from 13.8 to 14.1 and check it against the A/F gauge.



I think it's worth it since I'm unlikely to drive to the coast and I'm in the "lowest point" within a couple hours drive. Aspen and Vail to the north (8,000 feet), the Monument to the south (7,000 feet), Denver to the east (mile high, obviously) and it's on the other side of the 10,000 foot mountains. I think a little tweak might be useful, especially between 2000-4000 RPM.



I'm getting a little backfiring as I decelerate and probably some carbon fouling in the exhaust although, at 166,000 miles of running it pretty hard, there's no way to tell over what's already in there ;-)

2006 Black, GT, spoiler delete, five speed, leather, custom welded straight pipes with resonators, sequential turn signals, Hurst Pro Performance shifter. FRPP 4.10s with Motive bearing kit, Spydershaft one piece aluminum driveshaft, w/ Spicer 1330 U-joints, Steeda UCA and LCAs, chrome moly panhard rod. bye bye wheel hop, hello traction! SCT XCalII, BBK CAI, ZEX 100 shot.
I've written a book or two. Google David Buschhorn to laugh at my scribblings.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018
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Originally Posted by marylandGT View Post
Motors can be adjusted to run better at higher altitudes.


The ecm is already doing that...…………...and again, the software is designed to maintain correct A/F mixtures up to 8K foot elevation, custom tuning will not nor can it address this issue...there is something else amiss causing the issue.

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018 Thread Starter
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The ecm is already doing that...…………...and again, the software is designed to maintain correct A/F mixtures up to 8K foot elevation, custom tuning will not nor can it address this issue...there is something else amiss causing the issue.

Of course custom tuning can address the issue. That's why you need to tune for running an aggressive CAI or nitrous rather than just letting the ECM take care of it. All the MAF sensor is telling the computer is how much air is flowing past it, not the composition of that air/how much O2 is in it.

2006 Black, GT, spoiler delete, five speed, leather, custom welded straight pipes with resonators, sequential turn signals, Hurst Pro Performance shifter. FRPP 4.10s with Motive bearing kit, Spydershaft one piece aluminum driveshaft, w/ Spicer 1330 U-joints, Steeda UCA and LCAs, chrome moly panhard rod. bye bye wheel hop, hello traction! SCT XCalII, BBK CAI, ZEX 100 shot.
I've written a book or two. Google David Buschhorn to laugh at my scribblings.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018
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Originally Posted by JetBlack View Post
Of course custom tuning can address the issue. That's why you need to tune for running an aggressive CAI or nitrous rather than just letting the ECM take care of it. All the MAF sensor is telling the computer is how much air is flowing past it, not the composition of that air/how much O2 is in it.

Although you are correct in individual component function, this does not neget the software program and models (including the job of the O2 sensors- both upstream & downstream that in essence is one of several principle sensors that tell the ecm if the fuel mix is correct and what to correct by) that they are designed with. Custom tuning cannot address this issue...… what a tuner does is change the tables to increase or decrease the fuel mixture across a given rpm bandwidth...….. it doesn't care or even know about the elevation.....that is accomplished through an algorithm which unless you are a real software programmer with most likely a PHd in the field, you would not even know where to begin. The "aggressive CAI", there is no such think.... let me explain.....


The2013 Mustang 5.0 V8, for example if close to stock (assuming 6,800 max rpm& 90% volumetric efficiency- note that is race car spec and likely higherthan reality) can only suck in a maximum of 535 CFM, and the OEM flat panel filter (12.375” x 9.675”) will flow 718 cfm, there is simply no way any CAI on a relatively stock enginecan increase the air flow enough to exceed the ECM’s ability to adjust andmaintain the correct fuel mixture. The onlyreason for the “custom” program to support the CAI is because the design ispoor resulting in false readings from the air intake sensors (due to their relocation or positioning), etc….period! If you look at the dyno charts from many ofthese supposed HP/TQ increases, they are typically around 5%-7% at peak rpmranges…….guess what, 5% is a standard deviation even amongst mfg dynos and ifyou go to this link http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/tipsPDF/EnginePerformanceTechTips.pdfthe engineers at Ford racing have a article on just exactly how these “tuners”play games with the hp/tq ratings, how calibration can cause misleading dynoresults, & some of the “tricks” that are used to gain supposed powerincreases when in fact, mis-managing your engine….. and the most important itemis……these “expert tuners” (at least most) do not have or choose not to testtheir results (in comparison to the oem intakes) during actual vehicle motion(or simulation- such as a wind tunnel) as the oems do. What many view as an issue (is the plasticintake tube) actually increases airpressure. It is the same hydraulicconcept used by fire fighters creating water supply where psi is low. By havingthe air cross the path at a 90 degree angle, the pressure is increasedproportionally. Fire fighters use whatis called a “4-way valve” or “Blake Valve” at the hydrant where the water iscycled through the fire engine (pump) and sent back into the valve crossing thewater flow at a 90 degree angle. At low speeds, this can reduce the flow a tad (which is what most “feel”),but in terms of peak hp/tq, a good high flow filter is all that is needed.


In 2012 on jay Leno’s garage, when inquired, Fords Mustang Chief Engineer DavePericak specifically stated that the use of an aftermarket CAI will donothing to gain any power.





















Testand Corporation conducted an ISO standardstest on automotive air filters which can be viewed at this link: http://www.dieselbombers.com/chevrolet-diesel-tech-articles/16611-duramax-air-filter-testing.html. All I can say is this explains in detail thereason for Arlen Spicer wrote, and I quote...
“Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, letme explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I wasseeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word ofa salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceivinginformation printed on boxes and in sales literature. Gentlemen and Ladies,Marketing and the lure of profit is VERY POWERFUL! It is amazing how manypeople believe that better airflow = more power! Unless you have modificationsout the wazoo, a more porous filter will just dirty your oil!

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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 08-08-2018 Thread Starter
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He was right. An aftermarket CAI won't do anything... if you don't change the tune. If the paperwork/advertising says it doesn't require a tune? No change and save your money for something else.


Keep in mind, with a tune, the back O2 sensors are disabled. They are no longer part of the system, allowing your car to run lean or rich without throwing a code. It has to be WAY of to ding the CEL.

2006 Black, GT, spoiler delete, five speed, leather, custom welded straight pipes with resonators, sequential turn signals, Hurst Pro Performance shifter. FRPP 4.10s with Motive bearing kit, Spydershaft one piece aluminum driveshaft, w/ Spicer 1330 U-joints, Steeda UCA and LCAs, chrome moly panhard rod. bye bye wheel hop, hello traction! SCT XCalII, BBK CAI, ZEX 100 shot.
I've written a book or two. Google David Buschhorn to laugh at my scribblings.
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