turbochargers require forged short blocks? - Ford Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010 Thread Starter
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Question turbochargers require forged short blocks?

do turbochargers require forged internals of forged shortblocks just like high hp superchargers?

always wanted a S\C but just recently looked at turbochargers and have liked what i've seen.

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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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well if your looking for big HP numbers then yes i like the turbos better then S/C Turbos use wasted energy to make power.

a S/C car if it picks up 100hp it was realy more like 200 hp but it took 100 hp to dirve the blower or super charger

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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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Do turbochargers require forged internals just like high horsepower superchargers?
No. It's the weight of the supercharger mounted on top of the engine that makes it require forged internals. Since a turbocharger doesn't sit on top of the engine block, you can run well over 20 or 30 pounds of boost on a stock block with no problems whatsoever.


Of course, I just made all that up. In reality, boost is boost, whether from a supercharger or turbo.
The real answer is, yes, higher boost levels from any source will require forged internals.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Paul View Post
No. It's the weight of the supercharger mounted on top of the engine that makes it require forged internals. Since a turbocharger doesn't sit on top of the engine block, you can run well over 20 or 30 pounds of boost on a stock block with no problems whatsoever.


Of course, I just made all that up. In reality, boost is boost, whether from a supercharger or turbo.
The real answer is, yes, higher boost levels from any source will require forged internals.
^^^^^^
:hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi::hihi:


any forced induction requires forged internal
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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Quote:
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No. It's the weight of the supercharger mounted on top of the engine that makes it require forged internals. Since a turbocharger doesn't sit on top of the engine block, you can run well over 20 or 30 pounds of boost on a stock block with no problems whatsoever.
I suspended my supercharger from an a-frame I designed myself, supported between the strut towers, so it wouldn't put any stress on the motor and I wouldn't need forged internals

of course, I might have made that up too

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Paul View Post
No. It's the weight of the supercharger mounted on top of the engine that makes it require forged internals. Since a turbocharger doesn't sit on top of the engine block, you can run well over 20 or 30 pounds of boost on a stock block with no problems whatsoever.


Of course, I just made all that up. In reality, boost is boost, whether from a supercharger or turbo.
The real answer is, yes, higher boost levels from any source will require forged internals.
for a second, my mind just flipped upside down i was gonna say that was retarded, but yeah the only reason your gonnna need anything forged is because of the amount of heat/pressure that it cause on the pistons, and without suffecient gas itll burn those stock ones up real quick
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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I heard that as long as you add NOS, it makes the fuel colder, and then you won't need forged internals.. Of course, you have to make sure that you use both at the same time!! Just NOS or Just a turbo alone and you still have to forge!! That's only because the turbo compresses the NOS and then it gets RALLY RALLY cold!!

I'd say about a 200 shot and then you could go maybe as high as 30 pounds without needing to get forged... but ONLY if you do it with a 200 shot nothing less!!

Then, again, that's debatable too!

Oh yeah, it has to be NOS brand!! If you use a Zex or NX kit probably better make it a 250 shot!

OK... All BS aside (sorry but I couldn't resist).

The general rule of thumb for a stock 4.6L 3V motor is that Below 10PSI or below 500rwhp is generally considered the "safe zone" before you have to start looking into a forged block. Keep in mind though that 'safe' is a relative term and going forged is the only true 'safe' bet. But there are many mustangs out there (mine included) that do just fine on low levels of boost (as in under 10psi).

On the other hand it depends on how lucky you are too. There are engines that let get with as little as 5psi while others get driven daily running 12-14 pounds on stock internals. It really just depends and a lot of it has to do with getting the right tune on the car.

Even with low levels of boost if you go lean you can easily hole a piston or worse. Intercooling also plays a gigantic role on how far you can push it. I wouldn't go over 5 pounds non-intercooled.

I run a 5psi blower on my car and drive it like I stole it. So far it's been trouble free except for one instance where I had a bad ground on one of the Fuel Pump Driver Modules but that wasn't related to the engine. Also I've got a very safe tune on the car. I pull steady 11.0 - 11.2:1 Air/Fuel ratios while I'm in the boost which helps cool and lubricate pistons as well as avoid detonation.

Again, as long as you're below the 10psi/500rwhp mark, it's 60% about having the right tune, another 25% about your personal driving habits, and another 10% about getting a motor that wasn't built on Monday (if you catch my drift)

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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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Anybody trying to go for horsepower regardless of the power adder should go with forged internals, if you want to actually enjoy riding it more than one good time.

Simple answer, YES, keep it forged, spend the money once.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010
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All the joking behind turbos are a little gentler on motors then supercharges because of the way the power comes on. They tend to be easier on the drive train as well. That said it can't be stressed enough that big power means you pay me now or pay me later and an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I built my own turbo installs back in the early 80s. I used to have a dozen blown BMW blocks to show my experience. It is much easier with the excellent kits available these days.

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Problem is turbos make much bigger torque than any supercharger!

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Quote:
Simple answer, YES, keep it forged, spend the money once
If only.........

Ironically I know more blown built motors than stock ones. Building up the car (motor, trans, fuel etc etc etc) often is to allow the car to go to the next race level. So you're right back on the ragged edge again....only at much higher boost levels and with more supporting mods to complicate the build. My car is on its 2nd built motor. I'm not likely to do any harm to it, since I will be racing at the lowest boost setting (10-12 lbs), but Lance will be holding on at 25-27 lbs. It was at 22 lbs on last build.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norris1 View Post
do turbochargers require forged internals of forged shortblocks just like high hp superchargers?

always wanted a S\C but just recently looked at turbochargers and have liked what i've seen.

When kept to "lower" boost levels, (6-9psi) your stock engine can live a very ling and happy life. Boost is only a part of data to look at when talking about piston failure. HP/Torque is another huge factor to account for.

2005-2010 engines handle 430-450WHP well. We build and tune vehicles like this each and every day here with our 2 inhouse dynos.

For those wanting to push their luck and understand that a new shortblock may be in order at some point can increase power to about 500WHP. A good example of this is one of our employees cars.

2005GT, Ported heads, our custom cams, long tubes, and 10psi = 502WHP on our dyno. We "detune" it to about 470whp for longer street life then load the kill tune for the track.

If you are serious about forced induction, please call me and we can go over the many options. I have Whipple, Kenne Bell, Vortech, Procharger and Hellion Turbo Systems just to name a few.

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as tim said, forged internals are not required at lower boost levels. I would be quicker to used forged internals on a turbocharged engine over a supercharged one due to the heat created from the turbo. Granted with a big enough intercooler it won't really matter much.

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I'd be a little more worried about the tune and A/F ratio throughout the powerband...than boost levels, HP or torque numbers. A 400 rwhp motor running way lean from 4 - 6000 rpm's will not last near as long as a 500 hp engine with good A/F throughout the powerband.

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A lot of people run centr's because of the low stress up till about 4000 on, but anytime you cross that 460hp mark with a turbo you are probably getting close to 500 tq, and that is what kills a lot of engines. Thats why nitrous can be damaging because that big tq hit. But with heavy cars like we have tq is essential. You can pick up good rod and piston pretty resonable, i know a guy that just went with a 20 over cp piston, and h beams. His car makes high 6's and has been for a while now. Throw a good rod and piston in, and your good for 6's as long as the tune is on point. And then you got some brave guys that JPC has done with D1's and 125 shots on the stock bottom end. I think with a good tune "PIG RICH" and octane a stock bottom end can live with high 4's as long as the car isn't alwasy on kill mode. If you decide to go turbo get a good 7 or 8 psi tune, and get a 10psi track only tune, if your willing to take the chance.


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