S197 Mustang-2nd gear 'resistance'? - Ford Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-23-2010 Thread Starter
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S197 Mustang-2nd gear 'resistance'?

Hey guys. My first V8 and I'm loving it, 36k miles now, just got a new paint job to clean up the previous owner's scratches so now shes emaculate on the outside. But. I'm new to driving stick. I've got everything down real smooth except for 1 thing, followed by another question. And for the record I did search but only got complaints about gear whine/grinding noise which I'm not having at all.

#1. There is some 'resistance' when shifting from 1st to 2nd gear. 3rd and beyond no problem. Low speeds or high speeds is irrelevant (at least, I think.. I'll test tomorrow morning). It isn't really hard but it does require a little push. The rest are completely smooth. I don't want to grind any gears. Is this natural or driving error?

#2. I used to have real bad hop when I first started learning to take off. It's just me by myself so I've got no one to teach me. Yet, honestly, now my take off is wonderfully smooth. ..Possibly too smooth...

I hold the clutch just before the bite point if I know the light is about to turn green. Moments later it switches green and I touch the gas very lightly 1st, release the clutch to bite 2nd, hold maybe a second, then slowly push gas/release clutch simultaneously 3rd. Completely smooth.

Whole process takes maybe a maximum of 3 seconds. Am I slipping/damaging the clutch?

I don't have any issues downshifting or on hills so hopefully I've got this about mastered unless you guys tell me otherwise.

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-23-2010
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#1 My new 2011 has I think the same thing with 2nd gear. On my car, Ford set it up like that on purpose to force you to go to 3rd. during normal driving conditions. They claim it for fual efficiency. It's called "skip shift" I call it "Bull ****" I have learned to run it past 3000 RPMs a bit and it want tell the trany to block 2nd. Hope that helps.

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010 Thread Starter
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Huh. I've never heard of the 05-09s having "skip shift".

Can anyone else chime in?
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010
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don't know about the resistance... Mine doesn't have it.

Your take off seems about normal to me... I do it that way too. Over time you'll learn to let the clutch out even quicker... right now your "feathering" it a bit for smoothness. One thing you have to remember, manual transmission are DESIGNED to work on slippage.... there is no way around it. EVERY TIME you engage/disengage that clutch pedal you're causing wear. It's the nature of it's design. Eventually you'll have to replace it. Sounds to me like you're doing fine... I'm new to stick too... over a year now.... the first few months is interesting!

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010 Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply!

I'll just wait until my first major mod to have a shop take it for a spin and see if they can find anything wrong.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010
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Yes...I know the 2011's have the "skip shift". It forces you to go from 1st to 4th. It takes some getting used to. I thought that would be the answer when I saw the thread, but looks like its an older model.

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010
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If I ever get resistance when shifting, it seems to go into gear a lot easier when I rev match.

Ex. If im in 4th gear and want to shift to 5th while going 60 mph in my car, its a bit hard to push it into gear while at 800 rpms. But when I rev match to about 2000 rpms, goes into gear quite easily.

Im guessing you maybe new to manual transmissions. After a while you get to learn all the shift points with rpms and speeds subconsciously. just takes a bit of time.

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010
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Our transmissions have a habit of the syncros in 2nd and 3rd, not wanting to work. If the problem persists, and if your car is still under warranty, bring it to the dealer and tell them to fix it.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010 Thread Starter
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No warranty unfortunately.

Is there anyway I can diagnose if this is an actual 'problem' or if the resistance is normal? There is no 'grinding' noise and no vibration. It doesn't 'feel' like it's grinding either as I've seen someone on Youtube release the clutch too quick and grind the gear causing it to scream and pop out.

All I feel is weak resistance and only while driving. Just sitting, parked, every gear is smooth. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.

I don't want to pay the standard "$100 diagnostic" fee every garage in my part of Maryland charges just to tell you they don't know the problem. If there is a way to self diagnose the issue would it be smarter just to buy a new transmission all together?

Mustang GT Manual Transmission 05-08 Take Off

I'm going to get a friend who used to be a mechanic to take it for a test drive but that may not be for a few weeks and I want a second opinion regardless.

I'm sure he'll install the transmission for me free of charge if I could find a simple to read instruction guide that explains from start to finish.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranzo View Post
No warranty unfortunately.

Is there anyway I can diagnose if this is an actual 'problem' or if the resistance is normal? There is no 'grinding' noise and no vibration. It doesn't 'feel' like it's grinding either as I've seen someone on Youtube release the clutch too quick and grind the gear causing it to scream and pop out.

All I feel is weak resistance and only while driving. Just sitting, parked, every gear is smooth. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.

I don't want to pay the standard "$100 diagnostic" fee every garage in my part of Maryland charges just to tell you they don't know the problem. If there is a way to self diagnose the issue would it be smarter just to buy a new transmission all together?

Mustang GT Manual Transmission 05-08 Take Off

I'm going to get a friend who used to be a mechanic to take it for a test drive but that may not be for a few weeks and I want a second opinion regardless.

I'm sure he'll install the transmission for me free of charge if I could find a simple to read instruction guide that explains from start to finish.
Just popped in my head. It could also be your shifter linkage. It could be binding up in the second gear location. Could be as simple as lube it or replace the joint. just a quick thought.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302FAST View Post
Just popped in my head. It could also be your shifter linkage. It could be binding up in the second gear location. Could be as simple as lube it or replace the joint. just a quick thought.
Awesome, I'll have him check that as well, thanks! Now just to find some ford instruction manuals for this transmission.. hopefully they exist online.

Thanks again everyone.
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UWhat James said is true, clutches do work by using slippage to transfer smoothly from different gears and from a stop. If your clutch gripped instantly from a stop, the tire would either jump straight to match the speed of the engine or the engine speed would drop straight to zero(both of which would cause massive stress on the car). Slippage is a key aspect of the way the clutch works.

That said, it is VERY easy to have excessive clutch slippage when learning to drive stick. One thing that most everyone knows will destroy a clutch in no time is 'riding the clutch'. This means modulation speed by using the clutch. Ex: letting the clutch partially out or pumping the clutch while in slow/ stop and go traffic. When you do this, the acceleration of the car is being controlled entirely by how much friction there is between the clutch plates as they slide past each other, which in turn produces stresses and heat which the clutch is not really designed to take long term. In turn, the clutch plate surface wears away much faster than is typical. This kind of driving produces wear in the realm of repetitively drag launching the car.

The shifting you described sounds to me like you are allowing/causing excessive amounts of slippage in an effort to shift smoothly. The key to shifting smoothly is not letting out the clutch partially or extremely slowly, it is matching the engines RPMs to the speed of the car as best as possible between shifts while releasing the clutch just slowly enough to not jerk the car. When starting out, I personally shift much differently than you described. I get all the way into first while reving the car only as much as is necessary to avoid stalling the car, increasing the amount of throttle while I let the clutch out so that the engine stays at 700-1000 rpm and doesn't stall. From there I try and get into each gear as quickly as possible without jerking the car. How high up you go in the rpm range is really up to you and how much good mileage is important to you. Personally I don't shift until atleast 2500-3000 rpm in each gear when I'm not in a hurry.

In simple terms, if your accelerating while the clutch is not fully engaged, every bit of the force that goes to the rear wheels is transmitted through the clutch via the friction of the clutch plates as they are sliding past each other, when the clutch is fully engaged these plates don't slide against each other. The less slippage, the less clutch wear. Shifting like you described is OK while learning, just try to move away from letting the clutch slip or accelerating while the clutch isn't fully engaged.

As for the difficulty getting into second, all I have to say is welcome to the club. :
As far as feel goes, the transmission in my car is one of the notchiest noisiest transmissions I have ever encountered. I bought an mgw short shifter hopping to improve the feel, and now I just have less leverage to pass through the notch shift gates going into 2nd and 3rd. If I try and shift really quickly, it feels like trying to punch through a 2by4. :hihi: Honestly though, it doesn't bother me that much anymore, I just had to get used to muscling it into gear.

The only thing you really need to worry about in that area is grinding. If the transmission starts to grind randomly between shifts, then one of those little synchros might be about to call it quits.

Welcome to the V8, manual, RWD world. Personal, I don't think I will ever opt for another drivetrain setup. There is nothing like being able to throw the back end out in the middle of a turn with the wonderful powerband of a nice V8. :

Oh yah, check out the stickies in this forum, there is a fully browseable online ford service manual for the s197.

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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 08-25-2010 Thread Starter
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Found the sticky, just searching through them for the right one manual, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldComeNew View Post
One thing that most everyone knows will destroy a clutch in no time is 'riding the clutch'. This means modulation speed by using the clutch. Ex: letting the clutch partially out or pumping the clutch while in slow/ stop and go traffic.
I read a lot about that and everyone agrees this is the #1 clutch killer. This is something I've never done even while teaching myself so I wouldn't know how to ride the clutch even if I wanted to. It just isn't in my driving habits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldComeNew View Post
The key to shifting smoothly is not letting out the clutch partially or extremely slowly, it is matching the engines RPMs to the speed of the car as best as possible between shifts while releasing the clutch just slowly enough to not jerk the car.
The method I described earlier is solely for taking off. Shifting from 1st and beyond is barely a second, all of which is perfectly smooth.

Is barely 3 seconds considered extremely slow to fully release the cluch for a takeoff? Doesn't personally feel so but I've only got my own experiences to judge. I've found anything shorter and she wants to bounce regardless of how much gas I give. Not trying to be argumentative. I'm all for hearing from the experts.
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