Question about Headers - Ford Mustang Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010 Thread Starter
Rookie
S197 Member
 
Tjblaze21's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Kenosha
Posts: 24
 
Question about Headers

I know tuned headers are the best but wondering if i need to do anything extra if i install shorty headers or long tube headers. Also wondering if the ceramic coating really does anything for the headers.


2008 GT/CS stock with SLP Loudmouth Axel Back exhaust with JBA shortie tuned headers. 2010 style smoked tail lights.
Tjblaze21 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010
MACH I Member
S197 Member
 
Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Amherst
Posts: 2,655
 
The big benifit of the ceramic coating is to drop the under hood temp quite a bit. I'm not sure any headers are really worth the money on a stock build.
Dave


2015 Stage 3 Roush
'66' Ranchero w/almost done 302 T-5 swap
2000 4x4 Ranger
2003 4x2 Ranger
'69' Fairlane Cobra, 428 4-speed waiting for work
Dave is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010 Thread Starter
Rookie
S197 Member
 
Tjblaze21's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Kenosha
Posts: 24
 
Yeah but I'm all about the sound of the car and would like to upgrade performace over the long run.

2008 GT/CS stock with SLP Loudmouth Axel Back exhaust with JBA shortie tuned headers. 2010 style smoked tail lights.
Tjblaze21 is offline  
 
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010
PONY Member
2.3L Member
5.0L Member
 
kubitzford's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: Dent
Posts: 344
 
headers are always a good idea, i switch on a stock motor and gained power, sound, and mpg

"when in doubt lay on it"
kubitzford is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010
MACH I Member
4.6L Member
S197 Member
 
redruder's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Oahu
Posts: 2,557
 
Long tubes are the ones to get if you're going with headers and they do make a difference power wise. The coating does help with underhood temps and to scavange the exhaust better. Other than looks shorties won't really do much for the trouble of the install. they both install the same way except long tubes require a new x or H pipe.

Forged bottom end, Ported heads, Saleen super charger, 2.8 blower pulley/15psi, Dual stage water to air intercooler, AFCO heat exchanger, battery relocated, Twin GT500 fuel pumps, T-56 trans, Aluminum flywheel, Aluminum driveshaft, 3.73 rear gears, Eaton TruTrac Diff, TA Performance rear end girdle, Racecraft suspension system, UCA, LCA, panhard bar, 15" slotted front rotors w/ 6 piston calipers, Carbon Fiber front splitter/rear diffuser, and bunch of other stuff
RWHP/RWTQ is adequate
redruder is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-04-2010
PONY Member
4.6L Member
 
Mustang2005's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Ft Lewis
Posts: 464
 
Send a message via Yahoo to Mustang2005
I beg to differ on the shorty headers. On my car I can lay rubber in three gears easy since the Ford shorties were installed. Before the headers I could only chirp second. I see alot on people say shorties offer no power increase so maybe I have a special motor. LOL I know that my special 4.6 stock motor gets more TQ and better MPG now as well.

05 GT
C&L Racer Intake. 87-91-93 octane programs from Brenspeed. Motion Plate Delete Plates(NOS ports). Throttle body spacer taken out 1 week after install. Ford Racing Shorty Headers, Custom High flow cats, Steeda UDP's. Steeda GT axel backs. Steeda Lower control arms, Shaftmasters aluminum driveshaft. A surprise rebuild by brother (Master Mechanic) He calls it a stroker. Custom heads and cams with who the hell knows what else.Oh the NOS kit I dont have a bottle for.
Mustang2005 is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-04-2010
GT Member
4.6L Member
S197 Member
 
TonyGT's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 1,089
 
Get long tubes or stick with the stockers. Your not going to see much out of shorties.

2008 Vapor Silver Mustang GT

JLTSCTSLPBMRMagnaflowEibach
TonyGT is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-04-2010
Shelby Gt 350 member
S197 Member
 
sqidd's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: South Eastern
Posts: 9,239
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang2005 View Post
I beg to differ on the shorty headers.
Of course you do, everyone that buys something is pre-disposed to support their purchase, even if it a subconscious decision.

Quote:
On my car I can lay rubber in three gears easy since the Ford shorties were installed. Before the headers I could only chirp second.
That’s scientific. My stone stock 2010 will chirp the tires in the first three gears.

Quote:
I see alot on people say shorties offer no power increase so maybe I have a special motor.
I'm sure that's it.

Quote:
LOL I know that my special 4.6 stock motor gets more TQ and better MPG now as well.
Sure you do.

Header Data:
Header design is EVERYTHING and exhaust flow is fairly irrelevant in the sense that stock manifolds, shorties and long tubes will all flow plenty of exhaust through them. They are by no means a restriction. But with exhaust you are not trying to “flow” exhaust. There is no exhaust flow in the literal sense. There are exhaust pulses (which are little columns of “flow” if you want to get technical) which if timed correctly can be used to increase momentum (scavenging) of the exhaust gases. A simple way of thinking about it is if an exhaust pulse from one tube reaches the collector right as another tubes exhaust valve opens it will create a kind of vacuum in the collector which will help the just created exhaust pulse move faster. Consequently if the timing of the pulse is off a reverse pressure wave can be created that will bounce back against an exhaust pulse and therefore slow down the exhaust gases.

Log style manifolds (stock) have no “timing” in them and they are effectively very short tubes dumping into a big plenum. And they don’t even have a “collector” to speak of. Stock manifolds, if they create any sort of scavenging effect is purely by accident. Stock manifolds are so simple that they can only be defined by their “flow”. It’s a good thing they have an abundance of it. The stock exhaust manifolds have proven to be a very small restriction to supercharged motors which don’t rely on scavenging like a naturally aspirated motor does. You can make a lot of power with a supercharged motor while still retaining the stock manifolds.

Unequal length shorty headers probably don’t have a flow advantage over a log style stock manifold and if they do have some scavenging effect it is by accident again and minimal. What they do have is a collector. I could go on forever about collector design and why some designs work with some combos better than others but the basics are that a collector should help the individual tubes to merge the gases together in an orderly, smooth and in some cases timed fashion to increase exhaust velocity. The collector is about the only measurable advantage that an unequal length header will have over a stock manifold. I have yet to see concrete dyno results that show unequal length shorty headers offer an hp advantage over the stock manifolds. I have seen a few dyno tests but the testing procedures were sloppy at best and the gains claimed within the standard un-repeatability of chassis dyno’s. Any result from a chassis dyno under 15hp can be easily attributed to inconsistent testing conditions. Simply getting the differential and transmission fluids up to temperature will show as much as a 5hp gain. And that is only one example of many possible variables. The lack of articles about shorty headers and their “gains” is also a big clue that they don’t offer much of a gain if any. If there was a set of shorty headers out there that made even as little as 10hp and 10tq the manufacturer would most certainly be going WAY out of their way to organize a test for one of the magazines to report on. A PROVEN 10hp gain from a set of shorty headers would assure that manufacturer a truckload of sales. And to add insult to injury shorty headers are only about 1.5lb lighter than the OEM manifolds so there isn’t a big weight savings either. In my opinion unequal length shorty headers are a complete waste of money unless you think the money spent is worth how much better they look than the OEM manifolds. I want to want some. They are relatively inexpensive, easy to put on, and may sound a bit better. But the lack of PROVEN hp gains makes them a dumb buy.

An equal length shorty again will “flow” the same amount of exhaust gas as an unequal length shorty and not much more than a stock manifold but by equalizing the tubing lengths there may be a slight advantage in scavenging effect because of exhaust pulse timing. But the primary tubes are way too short to be able to take advantage of exhaust pulse timing. F1 Motors use very short headers, but not as short as a set of “shorty” headers and the F1 motors rev to 18,000+rpm’s! They of course also have a collector which will help a little with exhaust gas velocity. The collector design has everything to do with how well that works though and the only nice equal length shorty with a good collector design I have seen are the JBA ones. Just like the unequal length shorty headers the equal length ones have not been proven to make power over the stock manifolds and for all the same reasons. Technically the equal length shorty header should out perform the unequal length shorty headers but if the unequal length headers are only worth 2hp, which is entirely probable, the equal length ones could be 50% better, which would be a lot and still only be worth 3hp. The equal length shorty headers are a colossal waste of money just like the unequal length ones are. There are literally hundreds of ways to spend your money smarter.

Now long tube equal length “tuned” headers are the cats a$$. Now the primary tubes are long enough to start timing exhaust pulses correctly (or most efficiently) and since they are so long the collector design can be very good because a long smooth merging collector is the most efficient. I’m pretty sure the optimum length for a long tube header on a 4.6L is 32” or there a bouts, that’s what I mean by tuned length. The length dictates the timing of the exhaust pulses and when they get to the collector. If everything is perfect every exhaust pulse helps the one behind it and it will actually start to “suck” the following exhaust pulse (scavenging) behind it. Tuned length and the timing of the exhaust pulses is the key to making a header work. There is a lot of Voodoo in the design of a great header. Take a look at some NASCAR headers sometime, they are incredible.

Other factors in exhaust performance are the heat inside the tubing. The hotter the gases inside the tube the faster they will flow. That’s why ceramic headers or heat wrapped headers are an advantage, they keep the heat in. On some motors, and I don’t know if the 4.6L is included will see a massive exhaust gas pulse timing advantage by taking one primary from each side of the motor and running them over to the other sides collector. This is a product of the firing order of the motor.
Windsor
motors are like this. This style of header is a “180 Degree” header. You don’t see them much outside of pure race cars because obviously packaging is a nightmare. Strangely enough the X-pipe design came from someone (Dr. Gas) who was trying to mimic the 180 deg style of header. X-pipes help with exhaust timing and balance. It can almost be looked at as a third collector. H-pipes help with balance only.

One last factor to consider in exhaust performance is if you have FI. The scavenging effect or the desire for it isn’t nearly as critical as a NA motor. Why you ask? Because the exhaust pulses are being pushed out with a lot more force because the next piston that is getting its intake charge is being force fed which actually turns the intake stroke into a sort of mini power stroke in the sense it is helping move gases somewhere else in the motor. Now with a FI car the percentage of actual true exhaust flow goes up in comparison to exhaust pulse timing quite a bit because the size of the tubing can now become a restriction and since the exhaust pulses have something behind them pushing scavenging is not nearly as important. A good example of this is that a 325rwhp-ish NA car can pick up 20-25rwhp with some long tube headers and a solid tune. That is a 7-8%hp increase and it will be all the way across the rev range. Putting the same set of headers on a 450rwhp FI car will pick up about 15-18rwhp. That’s only a 2% hp increase. Clearly FI motors are not nearly as dependant on exhaust gas pulse timing, or scavenging as NA motors are. I imagine that if you sat down to design a FI specific full length header you would find that the tubing size, primary tube length and the collector design would need to be a lot different than the NA long tubes to be 100% efficient.


Waiting on 2019 GT500

2012 GT Vert Brembo - Stock-ish

2012 F-150 FX4 EcoBoost 4x4 406rwhp/522rwtq. The most powerful EB F-150 on the planet?

2007 GT-TSR/Stops/Turns/Custom Everything/3.4L Whipple Crusher/1000hp SOLD
sqidd is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-04-2010
MACH I Member
4.6L Member
S197 Member
 
redruder's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Oahu
Posts: 2,557
 
Once again well put. Class is now dismissed.

Forged bottom end, Ported heads, Saleen super charger, 2.8 blower pulley/15psi, Dual stage water to air intercooler, AFCO heat exchanger, battery relocated, Twin GT500 fuel pumps, T-56 trans, Aluminum flywheel, Aluminum driveshaft, 3.73 rear gears, Eaton TruTrac Diff, TA Performance rear end girdle, Racecraft suspension system, UCA, LCA, panhard bar, 15" slotted front rotors w/ 6 piston calipers, Carbon Fiber front splitter/rear diffuser, and bunch of other stuff
RWHP/RWTQ is adequate
redruder is offline  
Apprentice
S197 Member
 
goofas7070's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 205
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang2005 View Post
I beg to differ on the shorty headers. On my car I can lay rubber in three gears easy since the Ford shorties were installed. Before the headers I could only chirp second. I see alot on people say shorties offer no power increase so maybe I have a special motor. LOL I know that my special 4.6 stock motor gets more TQ and better MPG now as well.
My FRPP shorties really improved the sound of my Mustang.
goofas7070 is offline  
PONY Member
4.6L Member
 
Mustang2005's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Ft Lewis
Posts: 464
 
Send a message via Yahoo to Mustang2005
As Sqidd has prof thats long tubes are the only way to go, Than I guess I have a special motor then because my 4.6 is by far stronger with these headers then it was before the install. I'm not here to argue about whats best. I'm only stating the fact that they work very well for me, my MPG went up 2 as well. I'm planning to go to horse power ranch next month for the numbers. Last night I laid to wastes a car that I could only stay even with last weekend. Could be the combination with the high flow cats I installed to, the flow rate is double what the stock ones are.
But again it could be just a freak thing too.

05 GT
C&L Racer Intake. 87-91-93 octane programs from Brenspeed. Motion Plate Delete Plates(NOS ports). Throttle body spacer taken out 1 week after install. Ford Racing Shorty Headers, Custom High flow cats, Steeda UDP's. Steeda GT axel backs. Steeda Lower control arms, Shaftmasters aluminum driveshaft. A surprise rebuild by brother (Master Mechanic) He calls it a stroker. Custom heads and cams with who the hell knows what else.Oh the NOS kit I dont have a bottle for.
Mustang2005 is offline  
MACH I Member
4.6L Member
S197 Member
 
redruder's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Oahu
Posts: 2,557
 
Your sound is better with the shorties, my guess your improved performance would be from the high flow cats. Do you have base line numbers from stock? Without that you can still only guess what the improvements were. As for having a freak motor, that's actually not outside the relm of possability. One 3V can be vastly different than the one next to it power wise and that's bone stock. There is some gain with shorties, but it's small when compared to LTs. Tuned length shorties will give more gains than those that arn't. For the pain of replacing them most just spend the extra for more gains since the install is the same.

Forged bottom end, Ported heads, Saleen super charger, 2.8 blower pulley/15psi, Dual stage water to air intercooler, AFCO heat exchanger, battery relocated, Twin GT500 fuel pumps, T-56 trans, Aluminum flywheel, Aluminum driveshaft, 3.73 rear gears, Eaton TruTrac Diff, TA Performance rear end girdle, Racecraft suspension system, UCA, LCA, panhard bar, 15" slotted front rotors w/ 6 piston calipers, Carbon Fiber front splitter/rear diffuser, and bunch of other stuff
RWHP/RWTQ is adequate
redruder is offline  
Apprentice
4.6L Member
S197 Member
 
Casey4s's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: Woodbridge
Posts: 223
 
I had FRPP shorties for 3 years on my 05 GT and I really didn't notice any improvement in performance and there was no noticable sound change either. I installed tuned long tubes a couple of months ago and there was an immediate improvement in performance and it sounds pretty good too.

Installing the shorties was just as much labor as the long tubes so you save nothing there, and the cost is not that much more for tuned LTs.

"Geezer Club"
Casey4s is offline  
Apprentice
 
BigDaddyDewy's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Shallotte
Posts: 92
 
I love you SQUID!!!!!!

1989 5.0 LX Coupe Flat Black Manual. (Current project #2)
1988 2.3 Turbo LX Hatchback Black Manual (Current Project)
2004 Mach 1 Torch Red Manual (SOLD)
Vette Slayer.
2006 GT Convertible Black Auto (Totaled & SOLD)
DD
1994 Cobra Black Auto (SOLD)
BUILT.
BigDaddyDewy is offline  
Apprentice
S197 Member
 
goofas7070's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Houston
Posts: 205
 
The big gain with the LTH's is coupled with a new midpipe. If you install STH's with a new midpipe you will see similar gains....not the same but similar.

goofas7070 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a VALID email address for yourself, otherwise you will not receive the necessary confirmation email needed to confirm, validate and activate your new AFM member account.

Failure to provide a VALID email address, will result in the cancellation of your new AFM member account registration.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1