2005 Mustang GT Timing issue... - Ford Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010 Thread Starter
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2005 Mustang GT Timing issue...

Just joined this forum in hopes that someone can shed some light on the issue I have with my timing. Let me start from the beginning.

Around 50,000 miles I began to notice a little ticking noise coming from my engine. I searched and searched to find out if anyone else was having the same issue. Turns out, a few people claimed it was the lash adjusters. I decided to wait and do some more research to make sure.

So around 67,000 miles I decided to tackle the issue. I found out that if you use the 3-valve spring compressor tool it will make the job so much easier. So I purchased the tool. I also purchased the timing chain wedge tool as I was planning on getting a couple cams in the future. I put the tool on, compressed the spring, and soon realized the lash adjusters were too long. They only came about halfway out before hitting the cam. So the tool did me absolutely no good. I found out the best solution now would be to use the timing chain wedge and unbolt the cam so I can tilt the cam up just far enough to pull the lash adjusters out. My friend held the cam, (without taking it out of the sprocket, and I pulled out one lash adjuster at a time and put the new ones in. We bolted the cam back in, took the wedge out, and continued to do the same thing to the other side of the engine. Everything seemed to go smoothly and we put all the electrical connectors back in. I fired up the engine, and was extremely disappointed as it sounded the exact same. I read that it takes a little while for the lifters to break in, so I waited.

2 days later, I was sitting at a light and put the AC on as it was about 102 degrees. Once I turned it on, I started hearing a clanking noise. I thought it was one of the cars near me, but soon realized it was my car. I immediately pulled over and shut the car off. I disconnected the battery and waited for about 10 mins, then plugged it back in and started it back up. It ran fine until I pulled in my driveway. Then the clanking noise came back. I read the trouble codes and I forget the specific numbers but I know it was Timing over-advanced bank 2 and like 3 or 4 codes linking to misfiring. So I did more research and found that it could be the Camshaft Position Sensor. So I decided to just replace both. I haven't had any random missfires since, however I did rev my engine to about 4 grand behind a person that needs to go back to driving school recently, and then boom...engine started clanking again as the rpms were falling back down. I shut the engine off, turned it back on and it fired right back up no problem.

I have had my check engine light on since I replaced the lash adjusters. The code is P0021. Timing over-advanced. I did some more research and saw that some F-150 guys with the triton engines have had the same code pop up. Some said replacing the VCT sensor worked for them. So i gave it a shot. Seemed to run a little smoother the first couple miles, but then that damn check engine light came back (I erased the code when I installed the the VCT sensor).

I drive it everyday, with the rpms rarely jumping over 2,000. I noticed before when I was parked next to a building, the ticking noise was non-existent. Before I changed the lash adjusters, the t8king noise was extremely loud. So I'm thinking it was the lash adjusters. But I am still confused with the timing issue. How would the timing be over-advanced if we never moved the sprocket from the chain? Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would rather save the $1500 the dealer wants to charge me to time it.

Thanks in advance for your help!
-Bobby

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-15-2010
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Welcome aboard... Sounds like you may have jumped a tooth on the sprocket.


1965 Mustang Coupe
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010
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Welcome aboard.

The noise you are hearing sounds more to me like VCT rattle. The early production 05's had some issues with VCT rattle (or knock as some call it). There is a TSB on replacing the VCT soleniods. The VCT rattle will cause the engine to throw a cam position fault if it goes on long enough. Best case is you only jumped a tooth. P0021 is Bank 1 and that is the passenger side. I would pull the valve cover on that side and see if there is any noticable damage to the valve train, if there is then do a leak down and see if there has been a piston to valve event. Let us know what you find and we can go from there.

Also to properly remove and install the cam you must have the valve spring compressor to remove the cam followers. If you try to install the cam caps and torque the bolts while the cam lobes are compressing the valve springs you won't get an accurate torque on the caps and they will come loose! There are more than a couple threads in here about people who have tried this and failed. The end result is normally a cam follower that comes out from under a lobe or a broken cam cap.

As long as your valve train doesn't look like this you should be ok
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"You can't fix stupid"

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010 Thread Starter
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Ok, so if I jumped a tooth, is there a way I could just move the chain back one tooth? And which way would I go if it is advanced? I'm really not sure which way the chain spins. I'll try to tackle this tomorrow morning. Hopefully I don't have anything broken like that. That looks ridiculous.

Thanks for the advice!
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010
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Listen to 10/05... He's broken everything at least once!

1965 Mustang Coupe
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010
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You're going to have to pull the front cover and set the whole engine up from scratch. It's the only way to be sure.

If they play, I spray.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-16-2010
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You'll need this...

Ford Service Manuals - ASSEMBLY

If they play, I spray.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-17-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKurgan View Post
You're going to have to pull the front cover and set the whole engine up from scratch. It's the only way to be sure.
Yepper. Absolutely the only way to be 100% sure the cams are in time now. It's not a horribly difficult job but it takes some time. Just follow the link to the sevice manual that Kurgan posted.

Like I said in my other post, I would look very closely at the valve train on bank 1. Make sure both valve keepers are in the retainers on each valve and the followers are setting properly on the valve tips.

"You can't fix stupid"

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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-17-2010
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The Ford PC/ED refers to P0011 for your P0021 code. There are specific PIDs to monitor to diagnose this problem. Did your dealer perform this diagnose before they quoted you the $1500? There are lots of possible causes here, and without the proper tools and diagnoses, you are just shooting in the dark, pulling things apart, and swaping parts.

The PC/ED states:


P0011 - Intake Camshaft Position Timing - Over-Advanced (Bank 1) Description: The powertrain control module (PCM) monitors the variable camshaft timing (VCT) position for an over-advanced camshaft timing. The test fails when the camshaft timing exceeds a maximum calibrated value or remains in an advanced position. Possible Causes:
  • Camshaft timing incorrectly set
  • Continuous oil flow to the VCT piston chamber
  • Erratic camshaft position due to low oil pressure
  • Oil flow restriction in the oil passages or the VCT valve body
  • VCT solenoid valve stuck open
  • Open or short in the VCT circuit
  • Open VPWR circuit
  • Camshaft advance mechanism binding (VCT unit)
  • Damaged VCT phaser
  • Damaged camshaft position (CMP) sensor
  • Open or short in the CMP sensor circuits
  • Radio frequency interference (RFI) interference
Diagnostic Aids: This DTC may be accompanied by other DTCs. Diagnose all CMP sensor DTCs first. If no CMP sensor related DTCs are present, continue to follow diagnosis for this DTC.
This DTC is a functional check of the VCT unit. Diagnose any base engine concerns related to the engine oil pressure or engine timing. Refer to the Workshop Manual Section 303-00 Engine System, Oil Pressure Test, to check the engine oil pressure. Refer to the Workshop Manual Section 303-01 Engine, Timing Drive Components, to check the engine timing and VCT phasers. Application Key On Engine Off Key On Engine Running Continuous Memory All GO to Pinpoint Test HK . GO to Pinpoint Test HK .


2006 PCED Gasoline Engines
SECTION 5: Pinpoint Tests
Procedure revision date: 05/27/2009

HK: Variable Camshaft Timing (VCT)
HK: Introduction

HK1 CHECK FOR DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES (DTCS)
  • Note: These DTCs may be accompanied by other DTCs. Diagnose all camshaft position (CMP) sensor DTCs first. If no CMP sensor related DTCs are present, continue to follow diagnosis for the DTC. If any CMP DTCs are present, GO to Pinpoint Test DR . If no CMP DTCs are present, continue to follow this test.
Are DTCs P0010, P0011, P0012, P0016, P0018, P0020, P0021, or P0022 present?
Yes No For DTCs P0010 or P0020, GO to HK2 .

For all others, GO to HK16 . For symptoms without DTCs, GO to HK16 .

For all others, GO to Section 4, Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Charts and Descriptions .
HK2 DTCS P0010 OR P0020: CHECK FOR VCT DTCS
  • Note: The engine should be at operating temperature before running the self-test.
  • Clear the DTCs.
  • Carry out the KOER self-test.
Are DTCs P0010 or P0020 present?
Yes No For KOER DTC P0010, GO to HK4 .

For KOER DTC P0020, GO to HK10 . GO to HK3 .
HK3 CARRY OUT A THOROUGH WIGGLE TEST ON THE VCT HARNESS
  • Carry out a thorough wiggle test on the VCT harness.
  • Carry out the KOER self-test.
Are DTCs P0010 or P0020 present?
Yes No For KOER DTC P0010, GO to HK4 .

For KOER DTC P0020, GO to HK10 . GO to Pinpoint Test Z .
HK4 CHECK THE VCT1 SOLENOID RESISTANCE
  • Ignition OFF.
  • VCT1 Solenoid connector disconnected.
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Component Side ( - ) VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Component Side VCT1 VPWR
Is the resistance between 5 - 14 ohms?
Yes No GO to HK5 . INSTALL a new VCT1 solenoid. REFER to the Workshop Manual Section 303-14, Electronic Engine Controls.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK5 CHECK THE VCT1 SOLENOID FOR INTERNAL SHORTS
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Component Side ( - ) VCT1 Ground
Is the resistance greater than 10K ohms?
Yes No GO to HK6 . INSTALL a new VCT1 solenoid. REFER to the Workshop Manual Section 303-14, Electronic Engine Controls.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK6 CHECK THE VPWR CIRCUIT FOR AN OPEN IN THE HARNESS
  • Ignition ON, engine OFF.
  • Measure the voltage between:

    ( + ) VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) VPWR Ground
Is the voltage greater than 10 V?
Yes No GO to HK7 . REPAIR the open circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK7 CHECK THE VCT1 CIRCUIT FOR A SHORT TO POWER IN THE HARNESS
  • Ignition OFF.
  • PCM connector disconnected.
  • Ignition ON, engine OFF.
  • Measure the voltage between:

    ( + ) VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) VCT1 Ground
Is the voltage less than 1 V?
Yes No GO to HK8 . REPAIR the short circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK8 CHECK THE VCT1 CIRCUIT FOR AN OPEN IN THE HARNESS
  • Ignition OFF.
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) PCM Connector, Harness Side VCT1 VCT1
Is the resistance less than 5 ohms?
Yes No GO to HK9 . REPAIR the open circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK9 CHECK THE VCT1 CIRCUIT FOR A SHORT TO GND IN THE HARNESS
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) VCT1 Ground
Is the resistance greater than 10K ohms?
Yes No GO to HK20 . REPAIR the short circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK10 DTC P0020: CHECK THE VCT2 SOLENOID RESISTANCE
  • Ignition OFF.
  • VCT2 Solenoid connector disconnected.
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Component Side ( - ) VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Component Side VCT2 VPWR
Is the resistance between 5 - 14 ohms?
Yes No GO to HK11 . INSTALL a new VCT2 solenoid. REFER to the Workshop Manual Section 303-14, Electronic Engine Controls.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK11 CHECK THE VCT2 SOLENOID FOR INTERNAL SHORTS
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Component Side ( - ) VCT2 Ground
Is the resistance greater than 10K ohms?
Yes No GO to HK12 . INSTALL a new VCT2 solenoid. REFER to the Workshop Manual Section 303-14, Electronic Engine Controls.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK12 CHECK THE VPWR CIRCUIT FOR AN OPEN IN THE HARNESS
  • Ignition ON, engine OFF.
  • Measure the voltage between:

    ( + ) VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) VPWR Ground
Is the voltage greater than 10 V?
Yes No GO to HK13 . REPAIR the open circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK13 CHECK THE VCT2 CIRCUIT FOR A SHORT TO VOLTAGE IN THE HARNESS
  • Ignition OFF.
  • PCM connector disconnected.
  • Ignition ON, engine OFF.
  • Measure the voltage between:

    ( + ) VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) VCT2 Ground
Is the voltage less than 1 V?
Yes No GO to HK14 . REPAIR the short circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK14 CHECK THE VCT2 CIRCUIT FOR AN OPEN IN THE HARNESS
  • Ignition OFF.
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) PCM Connector, Harness Side VCT2 VCT2
Is the resistance less than 5 ohms?
Yes No GO to HK15 . REPAIR the open circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK15 CHECK THE VCT2 CIRCUIT FOR A SHORT TO GND IN THE HARNESS
  • Measure the resistance between:

    ( + ) VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Harness Side ( - ) VCT2 Ground
Is the resistance greater than 10K ohms?
Yes No GO to HK20 . REPAIR the short circuit. CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK16 CONTINUOUS DTCS P0011, P0012, P0016, P0018, P0021 OR P0022: CHECK THE OPERATION OF THE VCT SYSTEM
  • Note: Some vehicles require higher RPMs and loads to actuate the VCT system than others. The CAMERRR and VCT2ERR PIDs should be close to 0 whether actuating or not. During rapid VCT movements, the CAMERRR and VCT2ERR PIDs may momentarily deviate from 0. In addition, normal deviation may momentarily move to the end of the scale on a rapid acceleration.
    Note: For a symptom based concern, monitor all applicable PIDs during this step.
  • For DTCs P0011, P0012 or P0016.
  • Access the PCM and monitor the RCAM and CAMERRR PIDs.
  • For DTCs P0018, P0021 or P0022.
  • Access the PCM and monitor the VCT2ACT and VCT2ERR PIDs.
  • Drive the vehicle while exercising the throttle to generate VCT movement.
Does the RCAM and VCT2ACT PIDs indicate VCT movement while the CAMERRR and VCT2ERR PIDs maintain close to 0?
Yes No Unable to duplicate or identify the concern at this time. If the engine runs rough at idle and KOER or Continuous Memory DTCs are present: GO to HK18 .

For all others, GO to HK17 .
HK17 CHECK THE FUNCTIONALITY OF THE VCT SYSTEM
  • Ignition OFF.
  • For DTCs P0011, P0012 or P0016.
  • VCT1 Solenoid connector disconnected.
  • Ignition ON, engine running.
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Component Side Point B Vehicle Battery VCT1 Negative terminal
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Component Side Point B Vehicle Battery VPWR Positive terminal
  • For DTCs P0018, P0021 or P0022.
  • VCT2 Solenoid connector disconnected.
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Component Side Point B Vehicle Battery VCT2 Negative terminal
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Component Side Point B Vehicle Battery VPWR Positive terminal
Does the engine reduce speed, run rough or stall with the jumper connected?
Yes No The concern is not present at this time. The concern may have been caused by an oil flow restriction which was removed by opening the VCT solenoid.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test. GO to HK18 .
HK18 CHECK THE FUNCTIONALITY OF THE VCT SOLENOID
  • Ignition OFF.
  • For DTCs P0011, P0012 or P0016.
  • VCT1 Solenoid connector disconnected.
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Component Side Point B Vehicle Battery VCT1 Negative terminal
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A VCT1 Solenoid Connector, Component Side Point B Vehicle Battery VPWR Positive terminal
  • Listen for an audible click in the VCT solenoid.
  • For DTCs P0018, P0021 or P0022.
  • VCT2 Solenoid connector disconnected.
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A VCT2 Solenoid Connector, Component Side Point B Vehicle Battery VPWR Positive terminal
  • Connect a 5 amp fused jumper wire between the following:

    Point A Vehicle Battery Point B Vehicle Battery Positive terminal Positive terminal
  • Listen for an audible click in the VCT solenoid.
  • Repeat as necessary to verify the VCT solenoid click.
Does the VCT solenoid click?
Yes No GO to HK19 . INSTALL a new VCT solenoid.

Refer to the Workshop Manual Section 303-14, Electronic Engine Controls.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK19 CHECK THE BASE ENGINE OIL PRESSURE
  • Check the base engine oil pressure. Refer to the Workshop Manual Section 303-00, Engine System, Oil Pressure Test.
Are any of the above concerns present?
Yes No REPAIR as necessary.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test. INSTALL a new VCT phaser as necessary.

REFER to the Workshop Manual Section 303-01 Engine, Timing Drive Components.

CLEAR the DTCs. REPEAT the self-test.
HK20 CHECK FOR CORRECT PCM OPERATION
  • Disconnect all the PCM connectors.
  • Visually inspect for:
    • pushed out pins
    • corrosion
  • Connect all the PCM connectors and make sure they seat correctly.
  • Carry out the PCM self-test and verify the concern is still present.
Is the concern still present?
Yes No INSTALL a new PCM. REFER to Section 2, Flash Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory (EEPROM) . The system is operating correctly at this time. The concern may have been caused by a loose or corroded connector.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 09-22-2010 Thread Starter
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Wow I didn't realize it could be that many different issues. The dealer just told me they would have to re-time it and that it would be $1500. They didn't really dig into the issue, just ran a scan through what appeared to be a high-tech OBD-2 scanner. (I just use my tuner to read trouble codes.)

I was not able to open up my valve covers last weekend. Got a little busy helping family. I will try to get to it this weekend. Hopefully nothing is destroyed. I will let you know how that goes.

Thanks for all of your help guys,
Bobby
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