How Do You V6 Guys Take The Heat?!?! - Page 26 - Ford Mustang Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
SHELBY GT 350 Member
S197 Member
 
kj_cinci's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 5,003
 
Deer I mention TQ and the cars next to eachother on the 1/4 for compairsons then...

280 for a NA 3.5 6 is respectable
300 for a NA 4.6 8 is not as impressive but affordable and ever lasting

Neither is by any means weak!


KJ, poorer but happier

Thanks to:
Modular Depot
Fox Lake Racing
Tunable Induction
Power House 411
Sun Coast Creations
kj_cinci is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Apprentice
 
Wolfpac's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 95
 
'Wolfpac is actually wrong the base G35 has 280 hp Manual or stick... The Upgraded Model which costs 2k more has 298 HP. His whole point of view is really flawed..'

- I really have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. Go to the Infiniti web page. 298 HP is for the manual and 280 HP is for the auto.

Wolfpac is offline  
SHELBY GT 350 Member
S197 Member
 
kj_cinci's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 5,003
 
Thinking about closing this thread...?!?

KJ, poorer but happier

Thanks to:
Modular Depot
Fox Lake Racing
Tunable Induction
Power House 411
Sun Coast Creations
kj_cinci is offline  
 
GT Member
S197 Member
 
pumpdoc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: San Marcos
Posts: 2,445
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kj_cinci
Thinking about closing this thread...?!?
Please, for the sake of all that's right................:kooky: :green

'06---GT Deluxe 'Casper" IUP, shaker 500, auto, 17" bullitts, white/light graphite

retro '69 351 hood an scoop

"Hello America, you sick twisted freaks"
pumpdoc is offline  
 
Tofu's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1
 
The fact that the VQ35DE makes the same 300bhp as the 4.6 3 valve is a simple reflection of basic engineering, marketing, and financial and philosophical differences - not a question of "why is one good and the other weak".

Take a look at some of the differences between the two engines, and some of the things that influenced the engineers:

The VQ35DE makes the power it does simply because it breathes extremely well, has very precise and expensively machined parts, and had a better cost amortization than the 4.6L 3 valve.

For instance, the heads have very large, direct intake runners that are oriented very straight, with no shrouds and few obstructions. The finish on the ports is also very fine, close to the finish on the extrude honed SVT Contour ports. Both the intake and exhaust valves are large, and there's a total of four per cylinder, not three - there's more relative air flowing through those four valves given the cylinder displacement than the 4.6L. Remember that the original 4.6L engine was not really a "heavy lung" engine at all - opening up and reshaping the intake ports on the PI heads gave great gains in power.

The reciprocating mass of the VQ35DE is also very precise. The crank has microfinished journals, the rods are matched to each piston and cylinder by both size and weight - which is very rare for mainstream production engines - and the pistons have a moly coating and shortened skirts for lighter weight and lower friction. The rods also have tapered small ends for less mass around the piston pin. The big ends of the rods are mated to the rod caps with small dowels, instead of the cracked cap design on 4.6L rods. There are also piston cooling oil squirters in the block to help cool down the pistons at high engine speed. Basically, there's a lot of aftermarket tricks already present in the production version of the VQ35DE. There's less frictional loss in the head as well - the cams act directly on bucket tappets instead of on rockers with hydraulic lifters like on a 4.6L.

Better breathing, higher revving equals more efficiency, which equals 280bhp from a 3.5L engine. The 300bhp version adds slightly lighter pistons and rods, a little more aggressive cams, stiffer valve springs, and stronger retainers; basically a little additional strengthening to allow a more aggressive fuel and air strategy to get the extra twenty horses.

But, let's look at some other realities here. First, those 300bhp come accompanied by less torque generated at a higher rpm, so you'll have to work the VQ35DE a bit more than a 4.6L - think Honduh VTEC. Second, some of the engineering choices present in the 4.6L are there for reasons other than ultimate power - hydraulic lifters don't require valve adjustment, producing a two cam engine is cheaper than producing a four cam engine, producting a cracked cap rod is much easier and cheaper than producing a doweled cap rod. The 4.6L is also much simpler than the VQ35DE - for example, changing the timing cover on a VQ35DE is an eleven hour job (by factory techs!) that requires hoisting the engine out of the car.

Economies of scale also come into play here - the a version VQ35DE goes into nearly every car Nissan sells in the US (except the bottom and top of the ladder), while the 4.6L 3 valve is actually pretty unique when compared to its 2 valve cousins. That Ford could have made 4.6L 4 valve V8 that produced 400+ bhp is certain - of course they could have, but they damn sure weren't going to be able to do it at the same price point. What they did do was make a very nice, tractable, and powerful engine that fulfills 99% of most anyone's needs that doesn't require huge amounts of maintenance, special care, or arcane trickery to keep going, and stuck it in a car that mere mortals could aspire to own. In its own way, that's a bigger achievement than simply seeing who can squeeze what number out of what sized engine. (Besides, then we'd end up talking about the "weak" VQ35DE with its 300bhp when 1.4L turbo Renault R5s were making 350bhp back in '80s)

Horsepower numbers are pretty meaningless anyhow, and the only more pointless number is horsepower per liter. All that matters is how you use what you got in the real world.

Oh yeah, I have an '06 Pony.
Tofu is offline  
GT Member
S197 Member
 
pumpdoc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: San Marcos
Posts: 2,445
 
Sounds like a Rolex to our Timex, and ours can take a licking and keep ticking....:thumbsup Give me the tried and true Timex.........

'06---GT Deluxe 'Casper" IUP, shaker 500, auto, 17" bullitts, white/light graphite

retro '69 351 hood an scoop

"Hello America, you sick twisted freaks"
pumpdoc is offline  
SHELBY GT 500 Member
V6 Member
 
kscoyote's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Topeka
Posts: 11,432
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu

Economies of scale also come into play here - the a version VQ35DE goes into nearly every car Nissan sells in the US (except the bottom and top of the ladder), while the 4.6L 3 valve is actually pretty unique when compared to its 2 valve cousins. That Ford could have made 4.6L 4 valve V8 that produced 400+ bhp is certain - of course they could have, but they damn sure weren't going to be able to do it at the same price point. What they did do was make a very nice, tractable, and powerful engine that fulfills 99% of most anyone's needs that doesn't require huge amounts of maintenance, special care, or arcane trickery to keep going, and stuck it in a car that mere mortals could aspire to own. In its own way, that's a bigger achievement than simply seeing who can squeeze what number out of what sized engine. (Besides, then we'd end up talking about the "weak" VQ35DE with its 300bhp when 1.4L turbo Renault R5s were making 350bhp back in '80s)

Horsepower numbers are pretty meaningless anyhow, and the only more pointless number is horsepower per liter. All that matters is how you use what you got in the real world.

Oh yeah, I have an '06 Pony.
totally correct for both the V6 and the V8.

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
kscoyote is offline  
nghtrnnr
Guest
 
nghtrnnr's Avatar
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofu
The fact that the VQ35DE makes the same 300bhp as the 4.6 3 valve is a simple reflection of basic engineering, marketing, and financial and philosophical differences - not a question of "why is one good and the other weak".

Take a look at some of the differences between the two engines, and some of the things that influenced the engineers:

The VQ35DE makes the power it does simply because it breathes extremely well, has very precise and expensively machined parts, and had a better cost amortization than the 4.6L 3 valve.

For instance, the heads have very large, direct intake runners that are oriented very straight, with no shrouds and few obstructions. The finish on the ports is also very fine, close to the finish on the extrude honed SVT Contour ports. Both the intake and exhaust valves are large, and there's a total of four per cylinder, not three - there's more relative air flowing through those four valves given the cylinder displacement than the 4.6L. Remember that the original 4.6L engine was not really a "heavy lung" engine at all - opening up and reshaping the intake ports on the PI heads gave great gains in power.

The reciprocating mass of the VQ35DE is also very precise. The crank has microfinished journals, the rods are matched to each piston and cylinder by both size and weight - which is very rare for mainstream production engines - and the pistons have a moly coating and shortened skirts for lighter weight and lower friction. The rods also have tapered small ends for less mass around the piston pin. The big ends of the rods are mated to the rod caps with small dowels, instead of the cracked cap design on 4.6L rods. There are also piston cooling oil squirters in the block to help cool down the pistons at high engine speed. Basically, there's a lot of aftermarket tricks already present in the production version of the VQ35DE. There's less frictional loss in the head as well - the cams act directly on bucket tappets instead of on rockers with hydraulic lifters like on a 4.6L.

Better breathing, higher revving equals more efficiency, which equals 280bhp from a 3.5L engine. The 300bhp version adds slightly lighter pistons and rods, a little more aggressive cams, stiffer valve springs, and stronger retainers; basically a little additional strengthening to allow a more aggressive fuel and air strategy to get the extra twenty horses.

But, let's look at some other realities here. First, those 300bhp come accompanied by less torque generated at a higher rpm, so you'll have to work the VQ35DE a bit more than a 4.6L - think Honduh VTEC. Second, some of the engineering choices present in the 4.6L are there for reasons other than ultimate power - hydraulic lifters don't require valve adjustment, producing a two cam engine is cheaper than producing a four cam engine, producting a cracked cap rod is much easier and cheaper than producing a doweled cap rod. The 4.6L is also much simpler than the VQ35DE - for example, changing the timing cover on a VQ35DE is an eleven hour job (by factory techs!) that requires hoisting the engine out of the car.

Economies of scale also come into play here - the a version VQ35DE goes into nearly every car Nissan sells in the US (except the bottom and top of the ladder), while the 4.6L 3 valve is actually pretty unique when compared to its 2 valve cousins. That Ford could have made 4.6L 4 valve V8 that produced 400+ bhp is certain - of course they could have, but they damn sure weren't going to be able to do it at the same price point. What they did do was make a very nice, tractable, and powerful engine that fulfills 99% of most anyone's needs that doesn't require huge amounts of maintenance, special care, or arcane trickery to keep going, and stuck it in a car that mere mortals could aspire to own. In its own way, that's a bigger achievement than simply seeing who can squeeze what number out of what sized engine. (Besides, then we'd end up talking about the "weak" VQ35DE with its 300bhp when 1.4L turbo Renault R5s were making 350bhp back in '80s)

Horsepower numbers are pretty meaningless anyhow, and the only more pointless number is horsepower per liter. All that matters is how you use what you got in the real world.

Oh yeah, I have an '06 Pony.
couldnt take the silliness anymore tofu? first post and its a doozy...welcome to the club pal.
SHELBY GT 350 Member
S197 Member
 
kj_cinci's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 5,003
 
TOFU :thumbsup

KJ, poorer but happier

Thanks to:
Modular Depot
Fox Lake Racing
Tunable Induction
Power House 411
Sun Coast Creations
kj_cinci is offline  
JEB
GT Member
4.6L Member
S197 Member
 
JEB's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2005
Location: Vicksburg
Posts: 1,916
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kj_cinci
Thinking about closing this thread...?!?
Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!


You win!:thumbsup

and ToFu....

That was a great explanation of my point.....
for the price, there is none faster, regardless of hp, than the s197 GT.

I Hate GM, deal with it.
One shot, One Kill! Don't waste ammo, it's pricey!
2005 GT Screaming Yellow: SLP Loudmouths
Ibanez guitars, S&W revolvers, Glock Semi's
Republican write in Presidential Candidate 2012
JEB is offline  
SHELBY GT 500 Member
V6 Member
 
kscoyote's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Topeka
Posts: 11,432
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEB
Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!


You win!:thumbsup

and ToFu....

That was a great explanation of my point.....
for the price, there is none faster, regardless of hp, than the s197 GT.
And for the price, there's none faster than the v6.

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
kscoyote is offline  
GT Member
S197 Member
 
pumpdoc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: San Marcos
Posts: 2,445
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
And for the price, there's none faster than the v6.


arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'06---GT Deluxe 'Casper" IUP, shaker 500, auto, 17" bullitts, white/light graphite

retro '69 351 hood an scoop

"Hello America, you sick twisted freaks"
pumpdoc is offline  
SHELBY GT 500 Member
V6 Member
 
kscoyote's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Topeka
Posts: 11,432
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpdoc
arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:green :thumbsup :smilie :eyepoppin :nogrinner :shiny: :hihi:

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
kscoyote is offline  
GT Member
S197 Member
 
pumpdoc's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: San Marcos
Posts: 2,445
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
:green :thumbsup :smilie :eyepoppin :nogrinner :shiny: :hihi:

you made me chuckle:kooky:

'06---GT Deluxe 'Casper" IUP, shaker 500, auto, 17" bullitts, white/light graphite

retro '69 351 hood an scoop

"Hello America, you sick twisted freaks"
pumpdoc is offline  
SHELBY GT 350 Member
S197 Member
 
kj_cinci's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 5,003
 
Seems Tofu took care of the Throll... or maybe he's working on his rebutal...?? Probably on a flight to go to the G35 factory...??


KJ, poorer but happier

Thanks to:
Modular Depot
Fox Lake Racing
Tunable Induction
Power House 411
Sun Coast Creations
kj_cinci is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a VALID email address for yourself, otherwise you will not receive the necessary confirmation email needed to confirm, validate and activate your new AFM member account.

Failure to provide a VALID email address, will result in the cancellation of your new AFM member account registration.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where did you guys get your avatars? Chowder Head Fun Zone 93 10-01-2010 06:34 PM
Question to all you 5.0 windsor guys... 5.0L Tech 3 01-11-2002 10:47 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1