Expected Performance Gains? - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006 Thread Starter
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Expected Performance Gains?

Well, Im about to take the big dive and buy a C & L CAI and tune from Brenspeed, and am also looking at getting a 62mm Throttle body as well as TB spacer. Also going to buy underdrive pulleys and install those at the same time. Any clue as to what kind of gains I can expect from the entire combination? If you have any other alternatives, by all means lets hear it!

Just a side note... are there any main differences in quality or gains in different pulleys on the market?


*2005 Mustang GT- Torch Red, IUP, Shaker 500, MyColor, JLT II CAI w/Brenspeed Tune, SLP L/M's, BBK T/B, Steeda UDPs, Shaker hood, B2 hood/pins,18x9.5 GT500 replicas, CDC Chin Spoiler, Roush 1/4 window louvers, 8" antenna, honeycomb blackout, MWA mirror covers, Sequential TL's, black LED projector H/L's, H/L splitters, Ducktail, Hurst equipped....

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006
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I thought someone was saying throttle bodies don't really give you much of an improvement for what you pay for one...?


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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006
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I would say about 30 or 35 rwhp. I just put 410's in my car over the weekend, it will probably cost you about 400 bucks and the car doesn't feel the same at all. their is such a big difference in the car now and then.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw0scoops123
I thought someone was saying throttle bodies don't really give you much of an improvement for what you pay for one...?
Not only that but the spacer is a complete waste of money also
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFStang
Well, Im about to take the big dive and buy a C & L CAI and tune from Brenspeed, and am also looking at getting a 62mm Throttle body as well as TB spacer. Also going to buy underdrive pulleys and install those at the same time. Any clue as to what kind of gains I can expect from the entire combination? If you have any other alternatives, by all means lets hear it!

Just a side note... are there any main differences in quality or gains in different pulleys on the market?
25-30 with the CnL and 93 octane tune
7-8 from the TB (plus better throttle response)
10 from UDPs
Don't waste your money on a TB spacer. While it may work on carborated applicatoins, it really doesn't do anything for a fuel injected engine. Plus there are serious clearance issues with the CnL with a TB spacer. Trust me... I too fell for the hype and bought one awhile back (it's now sitting on a shelf).

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFStang
Well, Im about to take the big dive and buy a C & L CAI and tune from Brenspeed, and am also looking at getting a 62mm Throttle body as well as TB spacer. Also going to buy underdrive pulleys and install those at the same time. Any clue as to what kind of gains I can expect from the entire combination? If you have any other alternatives, by all means lets hear it!

Just a side note... are there any main differences in quality or gains in different pulleys on the market?
Good call on the C&L and Brenspeed tunes, I think. I went JLT and BamaChips, but I hear great reviews on the options you're looking at also. For me, getting the CAI and tuner was the biggest difference-maker so far. Almost like another car after throwing them on.

I'm skeptical about the TB spacer. All of the forum posts I've read seem to say that it's not worth any power. I think even the aftermarket TB's themselves are hotly debated, so I'd recommend further research on that mod before you plunk your money down on these items. I might even point out to you that you can get the Ford Racing CMRC delete plates for < $100. That might be an alternative for you, and I got a nice little bump in output after installing mine.

As for the difference between UPDs: Steedas seem to be the most favorably reviewed product, so that's the way I went. I see that a lot of other guys are running Motoblues, but I couldn't vouch for them. I could definitely recommend the Steedas, but they're a tad pricey. Either way you go, I'd recommend you check out the previous posts that describe the installation procedure. It was very helpful for me to look at beforehand.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlwagon
25-30 with the CnL and 93 octane tune
7-8 from the TB (plus better throttle response)
10 from UDPs
Don't waste your money on a TB spacer. While it may work on carborated applicatoins, it really doesn't do anything for a fuel injected engine. Plus there are serious clearance issues with the CnL with a TB spacer. Trust me... I too fell for the hype and bought one awhile back (it's now sitting on a shelf).
I would come very close to these same numbers. I did install a throttle body sapcer as well, and felt no significant improvement, so I removed it. I will have say, learn from the expereince of the poor fools (me included) who bought a TB spacer. I grant, many will argue about the throttle body, but I agree with stlwagon, it will give you 5-8 hp (as much as 10 if you believe the manufacturer) but more precesiely, it does give you a better throttle response.

I have added much of what you are looking to add (brand names not with standing) and you will feel a difference with all of these mods together.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-25-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JourneymanDave
Good call on the C&L and Brenspeed tunes, I think. I went JLT and BamaChips, but I hear great reviews on the options you're looking at also. For me, getting the CAI and tuner was the biggest difference-maker so far. Almost like another car after throwing them on.

I'm skeptical about the TB spacer. All of the forum posts I've read seem to say that it's not worth any power. I think even the aftermarket TB's themselves are hotly debated, so I'd recommend further research on that mod before you plunk your money down on these items. I might even point out to you that you can get the Ford Racing CMRC delete plates for < $100. That might be an alternative for you, and I got a nice little bump in output after installing mine.

As for the difference between UPDs: Steedas seem to be the most favorably reviewed product, so that's the way I went. I see that a lot of other guys are running Motoblues, but I couldn't vouch for them. I could definitely recommend the Steedas, but they're a tad pricey. Either way you go, I'd recommend you check out the previous posts that describe the installation procedure. It was very helpful for me to look at beforehand.
Welcome to the boards Dave. How do you like the CMRC deletes?

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-26-2006 Thread Starter
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I do remember reading about the TB's and how some felt they were useless. After hearing from everyone so far, I'm definitely going to pass on the TB spacer. JourneyManDave, you mentioned the CRMC delete plates... I'm a little shaky on the function of them - anyone care to inform me? I assume a greater amount of air flow, but am not positive by any means. By the way, I appreciate all of the helpful advice and comments... this is definitely helping!

*2005 Mustang GT- Torch Red, IUP, Shaker 500, MyColor, JLT II CAI w/Brenspeed Tune, SLP L/M's, BBK T/B, Steeda UDPs, Shaker hood, B2 hood/pins,18x9.5 GT500 replicas, CDC Chin Spoiler, Roush 1/4 window louvers, 8" antenna, honeycomb blackout, MWA mirror covers, Sequential TL's, black LED projector H/L's, H/L splitters, Ducktail, Hurst equipped....

*1969 Camaro SS with 454

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The CMRC delete plates can get you a few horses because they eliminate the butterflies that can restrict airflow. Nobody has reported very big gains with them, but they are good for a few horses.
Throttle body is a waste of money on the 05-07 Mustangs. They cause drivability issues (RPMs don't come down normally between shifts for one) and you get a miniscule(5) HP gain if any. There are many people that have bought them and removed them because of these issues, and now they are just sitiing on ashelf in their garage.
The fact that Kenne Bell and most of the other supercharger manufacturers say that the stock throttle body is fine with their kits should be evidence that buying a throttle body is a bad investment.
Throttle body spacer is a joke.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricesmoker
The CMRC delete plates can get you a few horses because they eliminate the butterflies that can restrict airflow. Nobody has reported very big gains with them, but they are good for a few horses.
Throttle body is a waste of money on the 05-07 Mustangs. They cause drivability issues (RPMs don't come down normally between shifts for one) and you get a miniscule(5) HP gain if any. There are many people that have bought them and removed them because of these issues, and now they are just sitiing on ashelf in their garage.
The fact that Kenne Bell and most of the other supercharger manufacturers say that the stock throttle body is fine with their kits should be evidence that buying a throttle body is a bad investment.
Throttle body spacer is a joke.
I think the jury is still out on the TBs. Agree that gains aren't substantial, but with forced induction, some setups have shown over 20 rwhp gains. I'm looking a better throttle response vs any increased power. I'm having it dyno tuned at the same time, so we'll see how it goes.

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I do not regret getting the throttle body. I am not sure (since I have yet to dyno my car) what the gains are with it, but the throttle response is better. I grant, the SCT XCal2 tuner may have more to do with that than the throttle body, but I am happy with it. As for the TB spacer, again I could not tell if I recieved any gains, and after much talk here on AFM, I decided to remove the TB spacer, it is now artwork somewhere in the house.
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IMHO- I would expect that TB issues posted here would affect different cars in different ways.

For instance- A car with an automatic trans will not experience what I consider to be the worst negative affect of "throttle hang": poor shifting due to synchro issues.

But a manual trans will have problems (gear synchronization, resulting in delayed shifts) on upshifts if the RPM's do not drop when the throttle is released (I have this problem as a result of a what I consider to be a bad tune).

The TB's interest me, and I might end up getting one, since I am rapidly running out of things to bolt-on to my stang (I'm trying to avoid the dreaded "Bottle"!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlwagon
Welcome to the boards Dave. How do you like the CMRC deletes?
Thanks, I've been lurking for a while, but figured I'd jump in on this thread. Anywho... the CMRC deletes are a pretty decent mod for the $95 or so I gave for them.

I've seen spreadsheet from a pull of a more highly-modified car than mine (think the difference was long tubes and O/R H) that shows a peak-to-peak gain of 11.4 RWHP and 17.5 RWTQ. I'm sure I didn't get that much, but SOTP feel is noticeable and if I only got 50-60% of the gain logged by that other car, it's still somewhere around 6-7 RWHP and 9-11 RWTQ. For less than a Benjamin, that's OK in my book.

Interestingly, I have not experienced any loss of grunt down low, as has been speculated in some other threads. I think it's stronger across the board, which is supported by the spreadsheet also.

My only potential regret with this mod is that I seem to get a bit less less engine braking under low-rpm + closed throttle situations. I suspect the CMRC's being shut completely in that scenario really cut off the intake charge, increasing effective engine braking. I can't say for sure it's the CMRC deletes though, as I changed several items over that weekend and didn't really notice it until afterward. So, that assumption would have to be cross-checked with someone else who's done this mod too.

AFStang, Ricesmoker already hit the essentials of the CMRC deletes. In the factory setup, the CMRC controls the intake charge at various RPMs with a set of butterfly valves located in the plenum runners. The position of the valves is controlled by the computer, and it's original function is still not entirely clear to me even after studying many posts. The best read I can get is that it's intended to control low-speed emissions - but totally possible I'm wrong on that.

The computer apparently fully opens the valves once the throttle is cracked open a bit, but even at the fully-open position, the mass of the butterfly and the actuator rod running through the intake runner obstructs some of the flow.

By replacing the plates that house the CMRC's with the delete plates (one per head), this obstruction is removed, gaining a small amount of flow volume back. Of course, since this increases the flow over the factory configuration, the computer's air/fuel tables have to be adjusted. And as well, the computer (finicky piece of junk ) doesn't seem to like it when the CMRC actuator motor stops sending a signal on its wire. So, for both of those reasons a tuner is MANDATORY if you're doing CMRC deletes.
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I wonder if better gains might be found with TB's after the installation of CMCV delete plates?

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