Refining the best sounding Exhaust (Duals) - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 09-14-2017 Thread Starter
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Refining the best sounding Exhaust (Duals)

So my mustang had the stock exhaust for a while and then I did a GT500 muffler swap in the rear and had a super nice tone but didn't have the volume I wanted. I rolled with it for a while and found some pacesetter shorty headers and threw those on (and deleted the EGR after it pissed me off -haha) and it sounded AMAZING! I loved the tone it was just about perfect, and the volume was a bit better at the top but I still want my car to be heard just cruising through the city at lower speeds or just idling. (I know, kind of a ricer mentality but hey I'm young and just wanna be obnoxious for a little bit and later tame it down.)

Later down the road found a sick deal on CL real close to me on a full exhaust for a 2011 GT mustang. Cats, down to the H pip, and the GT Mufflers with nice huge chrome tips that fit perfectly with my new body kit. So I couldn't turn that down for 80$ and when my friend and I got to mocking it up, it was all pretty much the same. I don't know the exact sizing of the pipes but it's much bigger. Fabed some rear hangers for the mufflers and the ones that go on the tranny support and it lined up super nice. the cats obviously wont bolt up the Shorty Headers I have because the new exhaust connectors aren't the ball-and-socket style that the 05-09 exhaust set ups come with.

So, to tackle this what I should have done was unbolted the new GT cats and cut my cats off to plug them back in and weld it after the stock V6 cats and before the H pipe.

I didn't

I had the bright idea that while I'm at it I should take out my cats because I live in MI so I never have vehicle inspections and all my life I have had huge benefits removing cats from my 'sports' cars. Also have a tuner so wasn't worried about throwing codes. And, I now run racing fuel 110oct with nitrous shot occasionally and would like to still have this as an option and I've heard that cats won't last long with this going through them. My car had 125k miles on it and from what I could see the cats looked really good still.(no damage, and clean inside). So I welded in a pipe to delete the cats, bolted the original flanges off the headers and then welded the new cat delete pipes into the H pipe and so on.

I think it flows a little better on the top end (my butt dyno said so lol) and I love having a dual exhaust, the tips are my favorite.. they're big and smoke comes out of both when it's cold but... at 3,000 RPM... it does the god-awful thing many people have ran into with the 4.0 mustangs and removing cats... it sounds straight Honda. If you really get on it and go all out it sounds pretty cool, but from 3-5 grand it's kind of embarrassing. So I'm stuck granny shifting around just before the "trumpeting" noise unless I have room to really give it the beans.

Any tips on a fix? I'd rather not re cut and re put my cats back it.. it just feels wrong. I still have the GT cats, or HI flow ones may be an option, but I heard those can make the trumpeting too. Would fabbing in resonators about halfway through the exhaust system help at all? There isn't any drone and it's honestly not that loud so I'm worried this will just silence it. Some people have recommended that to me and to offset them to make it rumble a bit more. This is an option.. there's a pair of SLP loudmouth resonators for sale on my local CR for 50$. (I REALLY like used parts haha).

I could remove the GT mufflers and just see what it sounds like straight piped but I think I would need more support to hang it and not having tips out the back would bother me.

I could buy aftermarket mufflers (axle back) for a 2011 mustang but they are pricey (even used) and I don't even know if that would help or hurt my trumpeting noise.

Long story short I am gathering parts up to most likely do a 4.6 swap, (and don't give the sell it and buy a v8, I've already done plenty of swaps and am sick of blowing transmissions from the 4.0, along with I think I'm pretty maxed on this engines potential. It's been fun and I'll keep it for probably this winter and maybe next summer but then I should be ready to get to work on that from a donor car.)

So, I have heard from one person that with my shorty headers I can buy a full exhaust that is for a 4.6 (cats all the way back) which I would like because that's one less part for me to worry about when that time comes. Is this true? Or how else would anyone recommend to make my car sound louder with less rice trumpeting that won't put my back money wise or I am willing to spend a bit if it will be compatible with my future 4.6 set up.... if that all makes sense.. appreciate the help guys!


2005 Legend Lime 4.0 5Speed
Drivetrain: K&N Drop-in, LUK clutch, GT mufflers, BBK 70mm TB, EGR Delete, PaceSetter Shorty Headers, Diablosport 93 Tune, Vex nitrous kit, 7.5 rear t-lok and 4.10 gears (8.8 rear soon)
Suspension: GT500 shocks/struts, Eibach Springs, GT500 Rear Control arms, Steeda strut bar
Cosmetics: Louvers, GT spoiler, GT black wheels with chrome lip, eleanor bumper, gt500 shift knob, GT grill with fogs, 3D carbon side skirts & rear diffuser/skirt
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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 09-14-2017
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Ok, lets start with the sound/tone. Ok, with the headers & mufflers you are just about there in your desire......... the only two ways to increase the sound at lower rpm's is to go with a larger diameter tailpipe or what is really the easiest is to go with an exhaust cutout.


Now, let me bring you up to speed on your mods and please forgive me if I sound like a "dutch uncle". With regards to the H/X pipe, the “H” was originally conceived (back in the 60's) to balance the two separate exhaustpulses to create 1) smoothness & 2) reduce the “brapp” sound, latermarketing guys started promoting the performance benefits although at the timeand as verified in later dyno tests, there was little to no performance gain. The “X” pipe is in essence trying to simulatethe effects of a 180 degree exhaust system whereby discharging the exhaust onopposite pipes creates a “vacuum” effect literally sucking the next exhaustpulse out, creating less back pressure etc….and it is effective. Perhaps what is most important is to verify the locationof where it should be installed and swag is not a good thing & can actuallyhave a negative impact. Typically theinstall would go about ½ way between themufflers & header/manifold…..the location, you can either use an IR gun andlook for the hottest spot or take a swag of where the location is, take somepaint & paint a thin line down that area….drive the car for about 10-15minutes with a couple full throttle short accel’s, then look for where thepaint is blistered….this is the “area of confusion” and where the H or x-pipe shouldbe installed.


Next, let's talk about the cats......
The factory already provided you with "High-Flow" cats and here's a link to a "Real Test" that verifies....on a 700+ hpengine......no gain or loss of with or without the cats!

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/header_cat_xpipe_exhaust_tests.pdf


Equally as important is the myth's about aftermarket high flow cats.....


http://www.catalyticconverter.org/news/news_page.cfm?Key=catalytic_converter-&News=89


Even though you are exempt from inspections, you are not exempt from therequirement to have them- even US Fish & Game Wardens carry a manual thatidentifies each vehicle and the required smog equipment, illegal engineschanges, etc with pics of how to ID.Any law enforcement officer (including fish & game), EPA inspector, etc.can impound the vehicle and cite it as a gross polluter and once cited, a judge will decide if the vehicle is to be scrapped or returnedto the owner- and you do not have any opportunity to speak in court- justrequired to sit & listen.


If the vehicle is returned- guess what, now you have to repair and take thevehicle to a federal referee station for the rest of "its life" for asmog inspection & test.IMHO, it's not worth the risk versus the little gain....and yes, I have seen that happen to more than one of my "buds".

The fines get very, very ugly too.......and yes, you even get to pay all the fees to have your car scrapped if the judge so orders it.

Under federal regs………up to $2,500 for modifying any emissioncontrol device….and lets face it, for $2,500 you can buy a lot of real performance!


IMHO, put your cats back on, install the exhaust cutouts and then you can have the best of all worlds........





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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 09-14-2017 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
Ok, lets start with the sound/tone. Ok, with the headers & mufflers you are just about there in your desire......... the only two ways to increase the sound at lower rpm's is to go with a larger diameter tailpipe or what is really the easiest is to go with an exhaust cutout.


Now, let me bring you up to speed on your mods and please forgive me if I sound like a "dutch uncle". With regards to the H/X pipe, the “H” was originally conceived (back in the 60's) to balance the two separate exhaustpulses to create 1) smoothness & 2) reduce the “brapp” sound, latermarketing guys started promoting the performance benefits although at the timeand as verified in later dyno tests, there was little to no performance gain. The “X” pipe is in essence trying to simulatethe effects of a 180 degree exhaust system whereby discharging the exhaust onopposite pipes creates a “vacuum” effect literally sucking the next exhaustpulse out, creating less back pressure etc….and it is effective. Perhaps what is most important is to verify the locationof where it should be installed and swag is not a good thing & can actuallyhave a negative impact. Typically theinstall would go about ½ way between themufflers & header/manifold…..the location, you can either use an IR gun andlook for the hottest spot or take a swag of where the location is, take somepaint & paint a thin line down that area….drive the car for about 10-15minutes with a couple full throttle short accel’s, then look for where thepaint is blistered….this is the “area of confusion” and where the H or x-pipe shouldbe installed.


Next, let's talk about the cats......
The factory already provided you with "High-Flow" cats and here's a link to a "Real Test" that verifies....on a 700+ hpengine......no gain or loss of with or without the cats!

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/header_cat_xpipe_exhaust_tests.pdf


Equally as important is the myth's about aftermarket high flow cats.....


http://www.catalyticconverter.org/news/news_page.cfm?Key=catalytic_converter-&News=89


Even though you are exempt from inspections, you are not exempt from therequirement to have them- even US Fish & Game Wardens carry a manual thatidentifies each vehicle and the required smog equipment, illegal engineschanges, etc with pics of how to ID.Any law enforcement officer (including fish & game), EPA inspector, etc.can impound the vehicle and cite it as a gross polluter and once cited, a judge will decide if the vehicle is to be scrapped or returnedto the owner- and you do not have any opportunity to speak in court- justrequired to sit & listen.


If the vehicle is returned- guess what, now you have to repair and take thevehicle to a federal referee station for the rest of "its life" for asmog inspection & test.IMHO, it's not worth the risk versus the little gain....and yes, I have seen that happen to more than one of my "buds".

The fines get very, very ugly too.......and yes, you even get to pay all the fees to have your car scrapped if the judge so orders it.

Under federal regs………up to $2,500 for modifying any emissioncontrol device….and lets face it, for $2,500 you can buy a lot of real performance!


IMHO, put your cats back on, install the exhaust cutouts and then you can have the best of all worlds........




No forgiveness needed! All information was super helpful and I appreciate your response! As for the cats, yes I agree I wish I had never taken them out. Not that I'm that worried about the laws (thanks tho, I had heard about that but never had it fully explained to me. Peace of mind never hurts and being a broke college student I appreciate ya looking out for me) but mostly I just liked the way it sounded before. I'm really just looking to get an answer on if anyone has had these cats die out on them from running racing fuel, I know it's not commonly done on the 4.0's but hopefully a couple track days now and again with a 110oct won't be too big of an issue.

So, I will either source a V6 catted down pipe (would be nice because now mine's all hacked and welded together, worst case scenario I can keep cutting and welding till she's all stitched back up to stock --- just annoying but I know my cat's are in good shape so I guess I'd rather do that than risk someones used ones of craigslist...)

Would you guess my exhaust will sound good at that point? Pacesetter shorty headers to stock v6 cats to 2011+ GT H, and 2011+ Mid pipes with GT mufflers? Or am I still going to have the really loud ricey/tuner/trumpeting noise because this GT piping is just larger. I get that it will not rumble and have a deep V8 tone but right now it's bad, makes me not want to cruise around anymore. Because if I can put cats back in and have the sound similar to what I had before and then cut outs like you mentioned, that would be perfect. (I did pop the muffler off back when I had single exit and drove around and it sounds really cool but nothing I would want all the time --- perfect for a cut out noise though) I already have some of those ready to order if you guys think the v6 cats with the rest new gen GT will sound not super raspy during daily driving.

Guess I'm just facing the realization of working on 'newer' cars. Things get a lot pickier, don't cheap out - learned that lesson quick.

Again I am still wondering if a 05-09 GT take off cats all the way back will bolt up to my shorty headers if anyone knows feel free to chime in!

Thanks!

2005 Legend Lime 4.0 5Speed
Drivetrain: K&N Drop-in, LUK clutch, GT mufflers, BBK 70mm TB, EGR Delete, PaceSetter Shorty Headers, Diablosport 93 Tune, Vex nitrous kit, 7.5 rear t-lok and 4.10 gears (8.8 rear soon)
Suspension: GT500 shocks/struts, Eibach Springs, GT500 Rear Control arms, Steeda strut bar
Cosmetics: Louvers, GT spoiler, GT black wheels with chrome lip, eleanor bumper, gt500 shift knob, GT grill with fogs, 3D carbon side skirts & rear diffuser/skirt
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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 09-15-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plagg View Post
No forgiveness needed! All information was super helpful and I appreciate your response! As for the cats, yes I agree I wish I had never taken them out. Not that I'm that worried about the laws (thanks tho, I had heard about that but never had it fully explained to me. Peace of mind never hurts and being a broke college student I appreciate ya looking out for me) but mostly I just liked the way it sounded before. I'm really just looking to get an answer on if anyone has had these cats die out on them from running racing fuel, I know it's not commonly done on the 4.0's but hopefully a couple track days now and again with a 110oct won't be too big of an issue.

So, I will either source a V6 catted down pipe (would be nice because now mine's all hacked and welded together, worst case scenario I can keep cutting and welding till she's all stitched back up to stock --- just annoying but I know my cat's are in good shape so I guess I'd rather do that than risk someones used ones of craigslist...)

Would you guess my exhaust will sound good at that point? Pacesetter shorty headers to stock v6 cats to 2011+ GT H, and 2011+ Mid pipes with GT mufflers? Or am I still going to have the really loud ricey/tuner/trumpeting noise because this GT piping is just larger. I get that it will not rumble and have a deep V8 tone but right now it's bad, makes me not want to cruise around anymore. Because if I can put cats back in and have the sound similar to what I had before and then cut outs like you mentioned, that would be perfect. (I did pop the muffler off back when I had single exit and drove around and it sounds really cool but nothing I would want all the time --- perfect for a cut out noise though) I already have some of those ready to order if you guys think the v6 cats with the rest new gen GT will sound not super raspy during daily driving.

Guess I'm just facing the realization of working on 'newer' cars. Things get a lot pickier, don't cheap out - learned that lesson quick.

Again I am still wondering if a 05-09 GT take off cats all the way back will bolt up to my shorty headers if anyone knows feel free to chime in!

Thanks!
IMHO, it all depends on the mufflers..... I am running duel 28" allied resonators (glasspacks) on my 2007 Mark LT (5.4)....it rumbles very nice, deep tone similar to the 1960's (how do I know...I have a 65 mustang with the same pipes..except 36" long) and on my wifes 1997 Cougar Sport (4.6), it has 3 cats...... (yeah), we are running 10" units on her (since she was new) and she has lots of nice rumble as well. IMHO, it won't quiet it down on the lower RPM range at all......perhaps a touch on the upper end..... enough that you can tell there is a difference, but not to the point where you will say that you've killed all the sound.

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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 09-18-2017 Thread Starter
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Just welded the stock cats back in and it sounds super good! so my set up is pacesetter shorty headers, to stock cats, to 2011+ 5.0 cat back duals (H pipe, resonators, and mufflers). Wonder if this has been done before... haha! It's not loud (still louder than stock haha, perfect I'd say for a refined tone and volume) but makes a really nice rumble especially on cold start ups and the higher RPM, I ordered a pair of electronic exhaust dumps that hopefully I can weld in next weekend. I'm going to start by unhooking the mufflers and giving that a sound check (would still have cats and resonators) and if that sounds loud I'll put the dumps after the resonators!) Thanks for all the tips guys, if anyone wants a sound clip let me know!

2005 Legend Lime 4.0 5Speed
Drivetrain: K&N Drop-in, LUK clutch, GT mufflers, BBK 70mm TB, EGR Delete, PaceSetter Shorty Headers, Diablosport 93 Tune, Vex nitrous kit, 7.5 rear t-lok and 4.10 gears (8.8 rear soon)
Suspension: GT500 shocks/struts, Eibach Springs, GT500 Rear Control arms, Steeda strut bar
Cosmetics: Louvers, GT spoiler, GT black wheels with chrome lip, eleanor bumper, gt500 shift knob, GT grill with fogs, 3D carbon side skirts & rear diffuser/skirt
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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 09-18-2017
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and TW with regards to the race fuel......I would not use it because assuming that you are running cylinder PSI/compression ratio that is for the street, race fuel WILL work against you because it requires higher temps to ignite (oversimplification).... had my next door neighbor who had a 55 chev coupe with the zz4, roots blower in it.....come to me 1/2 panic....as he was having a buyer come to look at it in a few hours....it was running like crap. Talks to him a little bit, found out he took his car to a local airport and added about 50% avgas to it...... the increased octane was soo high he didn't have anywhere near the CR/PSI/ignition to ignite it. we collected 2 gas cans, I siphoned (sucking the old fashion way) everything we could get out, added 1 quarts of acetone and put in 5 gallons of fresh gasoline......... told him to go run this down the road for at least 15 minutes.......


He wondered how I knew- when he got back....he said it had never run better......cause when I was 16 years old, I did the same thing....my dad saved me then too!

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