2011 Mustang 5.0L Knocking On Cold Start/Drive - Page 7 - Ford Mustang Forum
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Originally Posted by dtkbko View Post
But the service tech also said that it is normal for these cars to burn 1 quart every 1000 miles for the life of the car...
This statement is so grossly false it's almost beyond comprehension.

I say almost because it came out of a ford tech's mouth.

Had it come from the mouth of a german dealership, I'd be keeping an umbrella handy to protect myself from pig droppings and going shopping with satan for a nice fur coat.


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I just got a call from the dealer...apparently the knock could not be replicated and the oil was 1 quart low (I guess from break in). But the service tech also said that it is normal for these cars to burn 1 quart every 1000 miles for the life of the car...

As expected, nothing was accomplished. I'm hoping I can get there early enough today so I can have the tech ride along and I can point out the mystery noise that can't be reproduced...
I work for a ford dealer and that is not normal, when cars come in for oil changes 95% are still at the full mark. the other 5% went way beyond the interval. excluding leaks.

Most of these I have seen make noise when cold and have to sit overnight to duplicate the problem. The video I posted above is with a "chassis ear" installed and I placed the mic's on each side of the engine block and near the valvetrain on both sides. the noise in that video is coming from #1 & #3 pistons on bank 1. I have been trying to get this customer a new engine but have to get prior aprooval for Ford, and I decided to make that video after they told me that is a characteristic. I'm no engineer by any means but Im sure installing short pistons is worth about 10+ hp, but when those pistons are slapping my datalog shows knock sensor activity and knock retard of 8+ degrees of timing and that can be a 30+ hp loss. This vehicle has 6,200 miles on it,the first time it was brought in the day after it was sold (80 miles) and the tech engineers told us that it was normal. at that time the noise lasted up to 20 seconds max. now it lasts for 15-20 minutes. no where in the shop manual does it state that any noise is normal and when you follow the diagnostic routine for this symptom it tells you that there is excessive piston to wall clearence, it doesent say ANYWHERE that "this is a high performance engine and its supposed to knock" I have driven at least 20 2011 gt's that make no noise at all, and I have driven several that do. I hope this helps you guys out

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thanks for stepping up to the plate for us Toxic. Hopefully Ford will make right on the engines that are showing this behavior.

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this is a few screen shots from diagnosis, you can see the difference in #1 and #3 which is about 10psi. The fuel injectors passed but I have seen tighter flow rates on cars with 100,000 miles on them. then you see the misfire counts induced by knock retard.
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Update: Just got back from the dealer and I made it in time to take a ride with the tech. Before even getting out of the parking lot I pointed out the knock to him. He agreed that it sounded way wrong, but didn't know what it was. We also drove another cold 5.0 from the lot and it did it too, so its "normal".

They were unable to reproduce the knock this morning when they moved it because they let it idle with the defrosters on for 25 minutes to melt the ice on the windshield. DESPITE me SPECIFICALLY telling them it has to be cold to hear it.

I have heard of the engines losing a small amount of oil during the break in period, but this tech (I think the head service tech, no less) said that it is OK for this car to lose 1 quart for every thousand miles for the life of the car. It is even typed that way on the printout they gave me, I'm sure ford will be interested in hearing this. His reasoning was because it was a high performance engine, and his 2007 GT does the same thing....because they're the same car with the same engine and all...

Oh, and despite the manual and oil life indicator suggesting 10K mile changes, he still recommends changing them at 3K intervals every time, and since my car had just over 3K on it when I brought it it, they would be more than happy to change the oil while its in...for the full retail price of course.

Toxic - that is the same noise I have, thought not quite as loud (yet). It typically lasts for around 5 minutes, give or take, and becomes quieter for a few minutes after that. Thank you for pursuing this beyond writing it off as "normal".

If you need another subject car to test on and report to ford, I'd gladly make the drive down and let you use mine...though I'm sure there isn't any shortage of cars with the same characteristics.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic281 View Post
I work for a ford dealer and that is not normal, when cars come in for oil changes 95% are still at the full mark. the other 5% went way beyond the interval. excluding leaks.

Most of these I have seen make noise when cold and have to sit overnight to duplicate the problem. The video I posted above is with a "chassis ear" installed and I placed the mic's on each side of the engine block and near the valvetrain on both sides. the noise in that video is coming from #1 & #3 pistons on bank 1. I have been trying to get this customer a new engine but have to get prior aprooval for Ford, and I decided to make that video after they told me that is a characteristic. I'm no engineer by any means but Im sure installing short pistons is worth about 10+ hp, but when those pistons are slapping my datalog shows knock sensor activity and knock retard of 8+ degrees of timing and that can be a 30+ hp loss. This vehicle has 6,200 miles on it,the first time it was brought in the day after it was sold (80 miles) and the tech engineers told us that it was normal. at that time the noise lasted up to 20 seconds max. now it lasts for 15-20 minutes. no where in the shop manual does it state that any noise is normal and when you follow the diagnostic routine for this symptom it tells you that there is excessive piston to wall clearence, it doesent say ANYWHERE that "this is a high performance engine and its supposed to knock" I have driven at least 20 2011 gt's that make no noise at all, and I have driven several that do. I hope this helps you guys out
first of all, good looking out Toxic! It warms my heart to hear that there are people at the dealership who care, and will even go above and beyond. On the other hand it makes me sad to hear that Ford is claiming that as normal. I bet that vid is going to go a long way toward helping.

Chassis ear huh? That thing is radical. Is that new-ish tech or has it been around a while?

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first of all, good looking out Toxic! It warms my heart to hear that there are people at the dealership who care, and will even go above and beyond. On the other hand it makes me sad to hear that Ford is claiming that as normal. I bet that vid is going to go a long way toward helping.

Chassis ear huh? That thing is radical. Is that new-ish tech or has it been around a while?

every 5.0 i have heard cold makes that noise. none of them have blown up yet. so its normal till something changes. Rumor is a new tune for the 2012's makes it quiet.
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every 5.0 i have heard cold makes that noise. none of them have blown up yet. so its normal till something changes. Rumor is a new tune for the 2012's makes it quiet.
Some of those clips sound awful. I'm beginning to wonder if I should back out of 2012 that I ordered with this knocking issue as well as the 6-speed issues. If it was just a matter of a tune wouldn't they have a service bulletin to reflash affected 2011 cars with this new tune?
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Some of those clips sound awful. I'm beginning to wonder if I should back out of 2012 that I ordered with this knocking issue as well as the 6-speed issues. If it was just a matter of a tune wouldn't they have a service bulletin to reflash affected 2011 cars with this new tune?

listen, none of these cars have blown up or had a major issue. its a new motor that no one knows anything about. the knocking goes away as soon as the motor heats up.
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Quote:
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Some of those clips sound awful. I'm beginning to wonder if I should back out of 2012 that I ordered with this knocking issue as well as the 6-speed issues. If it was just a matter of a tune wouldn't they have a service bulletin to reflash affected 2011 cars with this new tune?
Heavyd, it is a real shame with what some folks are going though but as Toxic said, its not all the cars. There are many of us out of the recently reported ( 21,265 ) 2011 5.0 cars built that are not having this problem or any of the other problems mentioned on the forum.

If you want that 2012 Stang, keep the car on order..

Its good to have information, it another thing to draw conclusions from a small percentage..

All of us are waiting for Ford to post a TSB / fix . Reason why we have not seen it yet?? Problems reported so far have not reached that scale.. again, not making light of these folks that are having issues. I would be pissed too..no doubt, just saying , the motor and tranny issues must not have reached scale yet to produce a TSB..Ford could be developing fixes right now..who knows but not all of us are having these problems..

We do check for symptoms that others report, but if they are not on my car,, I try and move on or you can make yourself crazy imagining stuff..the car is a great car,, buy one...

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This thread has taking an even more disturbing turn.

First off, I have an idle tick, the ignitor tick, and this cold start knock. With all of that, I don't lose a drop of oil between changes, so the one dealer saying a quart every 1000 miles is full of the proverbial feces.

Ford continues to disappoint us. It's not that there are problems, it's repeatedly hearing the "normal characteristic response." I had mine in the shop at least 8 times on the ticks, and some of the responses were downright ludicrous. From mystery additives to wanting to dump 75w-140 gear oil in the engine, all the while sprinkled in with the occasional "normal operating characteristic" when they got frustrated.

All the while, all I wanted was a new engine, but they refused. IMO, they will never never never admit there is anything wrong with these engines. Some smuck has decided that it's cheaper to call these problems normal operating characteristics and deal with the legal percussions than fix every one with a problem. There will not be a TSB, only messages that these noises are there because it's a high performance engine.
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I have an update, after posting the video to youtube I got a phone call that tech hotline forwarded this case to a subject matter specialist, 30 minutes later I get a call from him and a 5.0 team engineer. I was very suprised to see how passionate they were about finding the root cause and making this right. they say that all of my diagnostics and data will help them implement / identify changes that need to be made. these gentlemen take this engine very seriously and personally. they are sending an engineer to verify that it isnt a simple tensioner and then this vehicle will get a new engine while the old one gets shipped back to them and tore down for analyisis. Today I got a call back from the engineer and he updated me that my video has circulated around and a boss engineer had some questions / recomendations for me. I am going to attempt to get a camera on the timing chain and rule that possibility out. they told me that indeed that this noise is not normal. I will update later today
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If they replace the engine for this, there will be many more folks not far behind.
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Quote:
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I have an update, after posting the video to youtube I got a phone call that tech hotline forwarded this case to a subject matter specialist, 30 minutes later I get a call from him and a 5.0 team engineer. I was very suprised to see how passionate they were about finding the root cause and making this right. they say that all of my diagnostics and data will help them implement / identify changes that need to be made. these gentlemen take this engine very seriously and personally. they are sending an engineer to verify that it isnt a simple tensioner and then this vehicle will get a new engine while the old one gets shipped back to them and tore down for analyisis. Today I got a call back from the engineer and he updated me that my video has circulated around and a boss engineer had some questions / recomendations for me. I am going to attempt to get a camera on the timing chain and rule that possibility out. they told me that indeed that this noise is not normal. I will update later today

Nice work bud! Keep it up!

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Not much of an update from me. I have been just driving the car and putting some miles on her to see if the noise changes at all. So far I am at 3800 miles now and the only thing that has had any effect on the knocking noise is the temperature on the morning start. Its been in the high 60's-low 70's here so my noise is not as loud, but still audible. Other than that, it has not changed at all. My dealer still has not called me yet to say that Ford released the fix for the 2011. I REALLY dont think its going to do anything, and I dont have the time or money to tear into the engine myself to do any diagnosis. Its killing me because I really want to figure this out. I am going to change my oil and filter this weekend and see if it has any effect. Not hopeful, but I will report any change.

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