"coyote" formally know as BMW's "s62".... - Page 2 - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-15-2011 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5ohwhoa View Post
With all due respect, you're crazy. Using your same logic, I could also say the Coyote is a knock off of the 5.0 engine that Lexus uses in the IS-F, but we all know it's not. Same compression, same VVT, same displacement, etc.

http://www.lexus.com/models/ISF/feat...gine_Story.pdf
looks like the technology is the same or very similar to both the coyote and s62. I am pretty sure that all car manufacturers use/steel each others technology as long as no patents are violated. The BMW engineers could very well have stolen this technology from another car manufacturer. Most RnD usually trickles down from much higher performance vehicles anyway. That is one on the reasons why car manufactures develop F1 cars and other race cars. I know for a fact that VW/Audi were the first to use DCT transmissions in their vehicles and now even BMW and others have adopted it.

But look at my original post at the similarities and to me that is uncanny. Not even the lexus engine has so many similarities (other than HP, trq and displacement, VVT). I guess both Ford and BMW engineers could have come to the conclusion on the design of their engines all by themselves but I find it unlikely. Usually it is easier and faster to improve on things rather than invent the wheel again.

Oh and btw, i believe that the e39 M5 was also the benchmark for the Lexus IS F. 4 door saloon with 400hp. just saying

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Originally Posted by rudy5.0 View Post
looks like the technology is the same or very similar to both the coyote and s62. But look at my original post at the similarities and to me that is uncanny.
I see nothing more than coincidental similarities.

Almost all engines built today have variable cam timing.
Many engines have 11:1 compression.
Most engines have hypereutectic pistons.
The Hi-Po Boss engine did away with piston oil squiters.
5.0 liters has great history within Ford.

The real "technology" is still unique to each engine, such as VANOS and Ti-VCT.

FYI Plenum and manifold are synonyms. Also the S62 engine is 4.9l.

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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-15-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimace427 View Post
I see nothing more than coincidental similarities.

Almost all engines built today have variable cam timing.
Many engines have 11:1 compression.
Most engines have hypereutectic pistons.
The Hi-Po Boss engine did away with piston oil squiters.
5.0 liters has great history within Ford.

The real "technology" is still unique to each engine, such as VANOS and Ti-VCT.

FYI Plenum and manifold are synonyms. Also the S62 engine is 4.9l.
Cant argue with you much but I'm not talking about roadrunner here and just wanted to note that 4,941 cc (301.5 cu in) is pretty darn close to (4951 cc, 302 cid).

Also the s62 was released in 1999. Thats like 12yrs ago. so I believe its fair enough to say that the e39 was a beast of its time and a benchmark for most modern cars now.
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Thats like 12yrs ago. so I believe its fair enough to say that the e39 was a beast of its time and a benchmark for most modern cars now.
I do really like the E39 M5, especially that it came with a manual trans as opposed to the flappy paddle in the E60.
post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-15-2011 Thread Starter
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I do really like the E39 M5, especially that it came with a manual trans as opposed to the flappy paddle in the E60.
They actually offered a 6spd on the e60 as well (very limited). I really did appreciate the shape and presence of the e39 M5. Didn't care much for the e60 shape although it too did have one hella of an engine. V10 that redlined at 8K. The latest was recently announced with a 4.4 V8 twin turbo. looks like BMW finally went over to FI but only beceuse they have significantly reduced turbo lag with the new design and save on MPG.

In all honesty though those cars cost an arm and a leg to maintain and repair and is why I am so happy with my 5.0 best bang for buck! no doubt
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Er, I don't really want to get involved in the argument here but I just wanted to point out one thing:

It's "formerly", not "formally". Huge difference in meanings.

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Having owned two E39 M5's and now a Mustang GT 5.0, I have to say that the engines are only incidentally similar. If you compare two 5 liter V8s with the same compression ratio, the cylinder volumes will be the same (duh!) and the torque will be the same. If you spin them to the same RPM, then the HP will be the same too.

The S62B50 was based on the M62B44 4.4 liter engine in the 540i and 740i. BMW M engineers maxed out the bore and lengthened the stroke to deliver a 4.94 liter engine that put out 394 horsepower. The block was Alusil, a silicon-reinforced aluminum alloy, eliminating the need for the cylinder liners which are still used in the Coyote. The intake strategy was very different from the Coyote - the S62 has no intake manifold. It has 8 throttle bodies with 8 short runners to the cylinder head. Throttle response is actually dampened by the ECU to make the car driveable in the real world. In a side note, the BMW powered Riley prototype cars in the Rolex Challenge series are powered by a Dinan-built race engine based on the S62.

As for things like the VANOS knock, it was an issue on early engines and was fixed with an oil pressure reservoir that pressurized the VANOS immediately when the engine was started. The rattle only happened on startup and only lasted until the oil pressure was up to full - a few seconds at most.

The S65B40 in the M3 (I owned one of them too) is completely different from anything that Ford makes. It's a 4 liter derivative of the S85B50 V10 in the E60 M5, but even then it's quite different. It's a 90-degree linerless Alusil block with a cross-plane crank (the P65 racing variant we see on TV in the Rahal Letterman cars has a flat plane crank), it has dual height wet sump with a ladder frame instead of bearing caps for the main bearings, plasma knock detection and sufficient computing power in the ECU that it doesn't need a MAF to determine airflow. Like the S62 it has eight throttle bodies and short runners. It turns 8400 RPM from the showroom and develops 414 horsepower.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudy5.0 View Post
looks like the technology is the same or very similar to both the coyote and s62. I am pretty sure that all car manufacturers use/steel each others technology as long as no patents are violated.
The fact that the Lexus 5.0 exists and is very similar to both of the other engines blows a giant hole in your conspiracy theory here. You said there is no other engine as similar to the S62 as the Coyote, and I proved you wrong.

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The BMW engineers could very well have stolen this technology from another car manufacturer. Most RnD usually trickles down from much higher performance vehicles anyway.
Ok, great. What relevance does that have here? Remember, you're trying to accuse Ford of stealing technology, not BMW.

Quote:
That is one on the reasons why car manufactures develop F1 cars and other race cars. I know for a fact that VW/Audi were the first to use DCT transmissions in their vehicles and now even BMW and others have adopted it.
Technically, Porsche had the technology for years before VAG started putting it in their cars.

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But look at my original post at the similarities and to me that is uncanny.
No, it's really not. I pointed out another engine by another manufacturer that's nearly identical.

Quote:
Not even the lexus engine has so many similarities (other than HP, trq and displacement, VVT).
Same displacement, nearly identical power output to the hp and lb/ft, same compression, the Lexus motor is as identical to the Coyote as the S62 is.

Quote:
I guess both Ford and BMW engineers could have come to the conclusion on the design of their engines all by themselves but I find it unlikely.
And I'm sure you're also a 9/11 truther, a birther and a Rand Paul supporter too, aren't ya?

Quote:
Oh and btw, i believe that the e39 M5 was also the benchmark for the Lexus IS F. 4 door saloon with 400hp. just saying
Uh, no, try again. Lexus was targeting the M3, the RS4 and the C63 with the IS-F, not the M5.

You don't care when my car was built or what options it has.
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yeah, well I have issue with anyone comparing a BMW to a Ford, if Ford sold a car that cost what a BMW cost it would run circles around it...look what they can do for $125K...the GT Supercar.
i know! considering that 70% of the ford GT was not made by ford. idiot.

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Quite the firestorm over these similarities it seems. My 2 cents here is he wasn't accusing Ford of illict activities or of them being unable to produce a great engine indepenently. As was mentioned no need to reinvent the wheel when designing things... and I'll go so far as to say good engineers reuse what works. You can bet Ford has done a complete tear down of every one of its competitors engines and cars just like every other manufacturer. They also look at what breaks in them and what holds up well, equations can't replace knowledge of 100,000 cars being driven for 10 years and racking 150k + miles. Its just good engineering.
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 09-16-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quite the firestorm over these similarities it seems. My 2 cents here is he wasn't accusing Ford of illict activities or of them being unable to produce a great engine indepenently. As was mentioned no need to reinvent the wheel when designing things... and I'll go so far as to say good engineers reuse what works. You can bet Ford has done a complete tear down of every one of its competitors engines and cars just like every other manufacturer. They also look at what breaks in them and what holds up well, equations can't replace knowledge of 100,000 cars being driven for 10 years and racking 150k + miles. Its just good engineering.
Thank you. my sentiments exactly!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ5Point0 View Post
Having owned two E39 M5's and now a Mustang GT 5.0, I have to say that the engines are only incidentally similar. If you compare two 5 liter V8s with the same compression ratio, the cylinder volumes will be the same (duh!) and the torque will be the same. If you spin them to the same RPM, then the HP will be the same too.

The S62B50 was based on the M62B44 4.4 liter engine in the 540i and 740i. BMW M engineers maxed out the bore and lengthened the stroke to deliver a 4.94 liter engine that put out 394 horsepower. The block was Alusil, a silicon-reinforced aluminum alloy, eliminating the need for the cylinder liners which are still used in the Coyote. The intake strategy was very different from the Coyote - the S62 has no intake manifold. It has 8 throttle bodies with 8 short runners to the cylinder head. Throttle response is actually dampened by the ECU to make the car driveable in the real world. In a side note, the BMW powered Riley prototype cars in the Rolex Challenge series are powered by a Dinan-built race engine based on the S62.

As for things like the VANOS knock, it was an issue on early engines and was fixed with an oil pressure reservoir that pressurized the VANOS immediately when the engine was started. The rattle only happened on startup and only lasted until the oil pressure was up to full - a few seconds at most.

The S65B40 in the M3 (I owned one of them too) is completely different from anything that Ford makes. It's a 4 liter derivative of the S85B50 V10 in the E60 M5, but even then it's quite different. It's a 90-degree linerless Alusil block with a cross-plane crank (the P65 racing variant we see on TV in the Rahal Letterman cars has a flat plane crank), it has dual height wet sump with a ladder frame instead of bearing caps for the main bearings, plasma knock detection and sufficient computing power in the ECU that it doesn't need a MAF to determine airflow. Like the S62 it has eight throttle bodies and short runners. It turns 8400 RPM from the showroom and develops 414 horsepower.
thank you for this!

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Holy crap...can't we all get along. Were supposed to be car enthusiasts. If any of you watched the program on the Speed channel regarding the development of the Boss...the Ford engineers themselves stated they were using the M3 and Porsche as a benchmark for performance and handling. They wanted to go beyond the normal Camaro vs. Mustang threshold. Your crazy if you thing Ford and every other manufacturer doesn't tear down to evaluate competitive engines that are successful. Give Rudy a break...he is entitled to his opinion and unless if you work for Ford and know for a fact that they didn't hire an engineer from Germany or you were personally involved with engineering the Coyote yourself, then your opinion is no better. He wasn't insulting Ford he was merely stating that they set their standards higher for a change... If anything, that's a compliment. In fact he is one of us and owns one. Car manufacturers have been swapping ideas and reworking competitors patents for years. Calling someone an idiot on this forum is uncalled for. Fun jeering is fine, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chace1 View Post
rudy5.0 you have made an excellent observation. I myself wondered the same thing actually. In my opinion the bmw engine is far better but the similarities do stand and I'm glad yo noticed. If you asked me what happened was Ford tried to tried to compete on the small modular engine scale and we'll just couldn't. I mean the 4.6 makes about as much power as a Prius. Whether sohc or dohc. So after years of competitive attempts they gave up and built another brute gas drinking v8 in 302ci. Bmw did it better about a decade earlier. And better with the s14 4cyl m3 motor which made the same power as the fox long runner 5.0. From what I know about engines I wouldn't be surprised if ford looked at that engine for a base of competition. It makes all the sense In The world seeming they did manage to beat the power by a small fraction. But wonderful observation I'm glad I wasn't the only one.
on your first post, you broke the rules lol. You brought back an ancient thread (4 years ago). Drop it to 2nd and run before the mods get you!


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