My 2012 Cylinder 8 misfire and low compression... - Page 4 - Ford Mustang Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
GT Member
 
mallen's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: salt lake city
Posts: 1,104
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastsumurai View Post
That totally sucks sh*t. I feel for you man. We need to find out what the commonalities are with this number 8 problem I am afraid to modify my car for the first time in my life. Why doesn't Ford jump in here and help us try to figure this out. And I am not talking about a customer service rep assigned to these forums. I don't think Ford knows the root cause of these problems since they haven't corrected it in three model years. It can't be just the tunes, too many of us are running them with no ill effects. Come on Ford jump in here.
I can imagine EXACTLY what Ford engineers would say. They would say,"We DO know the problem,its with tunes we didnt make." Ford probably feels they are under no obligation to provide technical assistance to companies that make products that COMPETE with Ford Racing for free. They are in this to make money. Now,if the companies that make the tunes were to approach Ford and offer up some consulting fees to get many hours,days,weeks or even MONTHS of a highly trained engineers time,Im sure they would be more than willing to help them out.

I think their overall answer to us would be something like

"We TOLD you that many other tuners cut corners,disable safety routines and push the engines to hard,and thats why they can get more power than FRPP does. We WARNED you that we make our tunes only as agressive as we feel is safe. YOU decided that we were lying to you,to get you to buy our product,and believed the claims of these other companies that we just were incompetant or didnt know how to tune an engine as good as they did,or just wanted you to have less power becuause we sit around drinking beers and laughing about peoples "gimped" 'stangs. We TOLD you that power came at the price of serious reliability issues,but you didnt beleive us and now your engine is blown and your wondering why we dont send an engineer that makes close to 100 grand a year out to work for the competition for free to help them figure it out. Well,maybe next time,you should just listen to us to begin with and understand what your getitng into"

I dont know if thats exactly what Ford would say,but I suspect its something along those lines.


Sometimes, I see cops with their backs turned writing tickets. When I drive by I can see them stick their heads up,and sniff the air,catching a whiff of exhaust and burning rubber,the crimson smell of speed,telling them a Race Red Mustang is somewhere nearby!


2012 Race Red GT, Kenwood Navigation system with Metra dash kit,GT500 steering wheel,Steering wheel buttons INCLUDING BT enabled,Takeoff leather seats with seat heaters.
mallen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
MACH I Member
S197 Member
 
adspru's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Covered in Snow
Posts: 3,094
 
Wicked400, you can disregard my PM Sorry about your loss, I find it very odd that Lund won't help offset any the cost associated with repairs.... I would not feel comfortable driving my car to work in the morning if I had a Lund tune......



Some people lead the way blindly, Others follow with 20/20 vision

Aaron S.
2011 5.0| MT82| White/Saddle|HID|Brembo|3.73| GT/CS Fascia| Saleen Grill| DynaTech LT's and O/R X| AFCO Aluminum Radiator | J&M LCA's & RELO's|Hurst Billet + | Eibach Pro Springs| KONI STR-T |Bama93| Airaid| 255/40/19(f)285/35/19(r) Kuhmo ECSTA XS|

Gone but not forgotten
|08 Mustang GT, MT Black| 05 IS 300 MT Black| 00 Camaro SS MT Black|95 Acura Integra GSR MT Black | 91 Prelude Si 4WS MT Black|

adspru is offline  
post #48 of 255 (permalink) Old 05-22-2012 Thread Starter
Apprentice
 
wicked400ex's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Monessen, PA 15062
Posts: 60
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedneck View Post
why not put a 94mm sleeve in? problem solved and its now a 5.1L. i would not waste the opportunity how ever much it sucks to get the motor out and not improve it.
Thanks for your opinion, that's whati I'm looking for. Basically to find out what all of my options are and for this to not happen to anyone else. This is one of those "It can't happen to me" instances. New car, Top quality parts, Tune from a highly regarded person that I've had the pleasure to meet awhile back, always ran 93 from a station right off nterstate 70 that would have fresh fuel more often, always checked and topped off oil, never drove in winter or chance of rain. But..... It happened to me, and I can't afford to fix it and I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.

2008 Mustang GT (SOLD)

2012 Black on Black Mustang GT Premium, MT82, 3.73, HID's, rear view camera, Brembo, Steeda, Lethal Performance, Flowmaster, SCT, Ford Racing Parts, Manley, ARP, Boss302, Mickey Thompson, Racestar Industries, BMR, M&H Racemaster, Pirelli, Energy Suspension, Stifflers, The DriveShaft Shop, Auto Meter, SOS, Raptor Performance, CFM.
wicked400ex is offline  
 
GT Member
 
mallen's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: salt lake city
Posts: 1,104
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheYeti View Post
I am wondering how many of these #8 failures are also engines that burn through a lot of oil......
I would not expect it unless perhaps the rings were damaged before,but then why would it only be in cylinder 8. Ive never heard of a FRPP tune blowing cylinder 8. Probably becuase they do extensive testing under simulated operating conditions on an engine dyno,becuase they have access to one,and also have access to engines to blow. If you think about it,they probably can blow all the engines you want,and they just rebuild em as they need to. Honestly,it would not supprise me if they make several levels of tunes during initial testing. I KNOW they do reliability testing and have to meet performance and reliability metrics.

My guess is that a tune that meets those metrics is the stock tune. The one that meets a differnt set of metrics,that is,is less reliable,but makes that 50 extra torque down low,becomes the FRPP tune. In other words,they dont HAVE to develop it,they probably already have a good idea of what the setpoints of the FRPP tune is from when they developed the engine.

They also know that if you do certain things or go to far,you blow cylinder 8. They MUST know this,becuase THEY went through all that tuning when they designed the engine. Since many tuners have had this problem,its inconceivable that Ford didnt see this during testing. Why dont they tell us what the issue is and how to avoid it? Well,perhaps they dont want to give away valuble information that came at quite a monetary cost to a company that is competing with them. Then again,maybe they HAVE maybe the FRPP tune IS the best you can get without that problem. Maybe they have made everything public,but we just want more than the FRPP tune gives us so we choose to beleive that somehow they just didnt want to make theirs as good as the competition or that that BAMA or Steeda or whoever just know more about the engine than the people that designed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adspru View Post
Wicked400, you can disregard my PM Sorry about your loss, I find it very odd that Lund won't help offset any the cost associated with repairs.... I would not feel comfortable driving my car to work in the morning if I had a Lund tune......
Well,Lund says theirs is great. Everyone says theirs is great. Only FRPP and BAMA put their money where their mouth is.

Sometimes, I see cops with their backs turned writing tickets. When I drive by I can see them stick their heads up,and sniff the air,catching a whiff of exhaust and burning rubber,the crimson smell of speed,telling them a Race Red Mustang is somewhere nearby!


2012 Race Red GT, Kenwood Navigation system with Metra dash kit,GT500 steering wheel,Steering wheel buttons INCLUDING BT enabled,Takeoff leather seats with seat heaters.

Last edited by Snackmaster; 05-30-2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: merged back to back posts
mallen is offline  
post #50 of 255 (permalink) Old 05-22-2012 Thread Starter
Apprentice
 
wicked400ex's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Monessen, PA 15062
Posts: 60
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Rouge View Post
I can't explain the screenshot SirJag posted, but one thing is certain: you're not banned. If you were banned, you wouldn't be able to post.
I agree, that's where I was getting confused.

2008 Mustang GT (SOLD)

2012 Black on Black Mustang GT Premium, MT82, 3.73, HID's, rear view camera, Brembo, Steeda, Lethal Performance, Flowmaster, SCT, Ford Racing Parts, Manley, ARP, Boss302, Mickey Thompson, Racestar Industries, BMR, M&H Racemaster, Pirelli, Energy Suspension, Stifflers, The DriveShaft Shop, Auto Meter, SOS, Raptor Performance, CFM.
wicked400ex is offline  
GT Member
 
burke985's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Slidell
Posts: 1,412
 
sorry to hear about this I would really like to know what these tuners are doing to make this happen, barring it is the tune at fault because it very well could not be and ford just seeing that your PCM was flashed and automatically voiding your warranty with out really checking it out. This is the main reason I went with steeda not a single case of this .....good luck

Blower and stuff

622 whp and 545 wtq @ 8.5psi
AED Tune = Best mod of all
burke985 is offline  
GT Member
 
mallen's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: salt lake city
Posts: 1,104
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirJAG View Post
How did they know it was tuned? Did u tell them? Did u flash back to stock and put stock intake back in before bringing it in? Did u disconnect battery after all of that and drive >50miles? After 50 miles the stock computer would only have logs of timing advance/retard showing stock adjustments. The check sum counter can be explained away as well. Pm me with any questions. Good luck.
That seems like a VERY bad idea. You reflash it,drive it 50 miles and cause even MORE damage to the engine,then if they reject your warranty,you have that much more money to spend on the repairs. If you blow your engine,it should be around a grand to fix it,if you know what your doing. At most,around 3k,and it will be better than it was from the factory. If you DONT know how to fix it,then you DONT KNOW enough about engines to go messing with tunes anyway. Leave it to the people that do,and enjoy your car as is. Its already damn fast.

The real problem is not bad tunes,or Ford not helping them make the tunes better. Back in the day,people who modified their vehicles for more power had to know what they were doing. Now,you go buy a little box off the internet,and it changes around valve timing and ignition timing and fuel ratios and you dont have to understand it at all. When it all goes sideways on you,you were promised by that company on the internet that it was safe so you blame Ford.

Why dont ALL of our cars that were tune have the problems? Well,its becuase all of our cars are not identical. Some will be capable of more power,some less. Its just like overclocking a CPU,sometimes you get a gem that will overclock 40% and sometimes you cant go beyond the rated speed at all. You dont blame Intel ,becuase you got one that would not,or that runs hotter than others but still within the rated power. These engines are mass produced within a certain tolerance. They make a tune that has to work on ALL of the engines they make. If you go to far outside those stock parameters,maybe its going to work,maybe its going blow up on you. Just depends on how lucky you are.

Sometimes, I see cops with their backs turned writing tickets. When I drive by I can see them stick their heads up,and sniff the air,catching a whiff of exhaust and burning rubber,the crimson smell of speed,telling them a Race Red Mustang is somewhere nearby!


2012 Race Red GT, Kenwood Navigation system with Metra dash kit,GT500 steering wheel,Steering wheel buttons INCLUDING BT enabled,Takeoff leather seats with seat heaters.
mallen is offline  
post #53 of 255 (permalink) Old 05-22-2012 Thread Starter
Apprentice
 
wicked400ex's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2009
Location: Monessen, PA 15062
Posts: 60
 
Maybe one thing everyone can do is check their rev limiter setting and make sure it is not higher then stock. That may be one thing that accidentally or purposely going above could be resulting in some of the added stresses causing the #8 failure over time. If it was afr or timing, you would think it wouldn't have lasted 3400 miles. Once again, I just don't want to see this happen to anyone else.

2008 Mustang GT (SOLD)

2012 Black on Black Mustang GT Premium, MT82, 3.73, HID's, rear view camera, Brembo, Steeda, Lethal Performance, Flowmaster, SCT, Ford Racing Parts, Manley, ARP, Boss302, Mickey Thompson, Racestar Industries, BMR, M&H Racemaster, Pirelli, Energy Suspension, Stifflers, The DriveShaft Shop, Auto Meter, SOS, Raptor Performance, CFM.
wicked400ex is offline  
Rookie
 
draggin92's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: East Coast
Posts: 4
 
If the car uses oil and it's not leaking outside of the engine...where does it go? Into the cylinder. Oil in the cylinder lowers the octane rating...reduction in octane severly increases the chance of detonation. High heat/detonation breaks ring lands. We are not dealing with 225hp 5.0's anymore...

A popular mustang shop has witnessed a few engine failures just from long cruises at a steady rpm.

There has been failures on the ford tunes and ALL of the tuners so far. The only thing I can say is some of the cars were heavy users of oil from the factory.

If you don't believe me start looking into the other 20 mustang sites that are out there.
draggin92 is offline  
PONY Member
 
twistedneck's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Dearborn
Posts: 508
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wicked400ex View Post
Maybe one thing everyone can do is check their rev limiter setting and make sure it is not higher then stock. That may be one thing that accidentally or purposely going above could be resulting in some of the added stresses causing the #8 failure over time. If it was afr or timing, you would think it wouldn't have lasted 3400 miles. Once again, I just don't want to see this happen to anyone else.
man.. my limiter is at 7600 and i hit 7200+ at least a few times a week. ahh well, i may suffer the same fate at least i know i took a big risk.

Time to put the car on hold, suffer through the payments until you can afford to get it fixed. Everyone feels your pain - and its ratcheted up the fear factor for other tuned people.
twistedneck is offline  
GT Member
 
mallen's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Location: salt lake city
Posts: 1,104
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirJAG View Post
I am afraid whats more likely is bama would say its not there fault just like ford will and neither will pay.
You should go read up on BAMAs tune. BAMA comes with the cylinder 8 warranty. If cylinder 8 fails due to their tune,they will repair your engine for the remainder of the factory warranty. They have the expertise to argue on a somewhat equal footing with Ford. Its either Fords or BAMAs problem and they can sort it out between themselves. There are some here that have had that happen apperantly.

Where I work there are people that do failure analysis. Suppose a scaffold collapses. The company responsible might say "its not due to negligence,one of the welds just rusted under the paint and no one noticed it becuase it was hidden" Our guys can look at the scaffold and tell them "No,the welds were fine,the scaffold was overloaded to at least twice its weight capacity" The company might try to argue,but our people can point to the fracture patterns on the surface of the broken metal parts and prove that our version of events is the correct one and the companies version is just plain wrong.

If your talking 10,000 dollars for an engine,my guess is,BAMA is buying that warranty from some company. That company will probably have their experts look at the damage,and if Ford is full of it,for instance,that broken piston was not caused by detonation,but rather a bubble in the casting,they will tell Ford they need to pony up or they are going to end up fixing and suing them to reimburse their money. Ford knowing they have them dead to rights would probably roll over,whereas they might not if I inspected the piston and pointed it out.

Sometimes, I see cops with their backs turned writing tickets. When I drive by I can see them stick their heads up,and sniff the air,catching a whiff of exhaust and burning rubber,the crimson smell of speed,telling them a Race Red Mustang is somewhere nearby!


2012 Race Red GT, Kenwood Navigation system with Metra dash kit,GT500 steering wheel,Steering wheel buttons INCLUDING BT enabled,Takeoff leather seats with seat heaters.
mallen is offline  
MACH I Member
S197 Member
 
adspru's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: Covered in Snow
Posts: 3,094
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mallen View Post
If your talking 10,000 dollars for an engine,my guess is,BAMA is buying that warranty from some company. That company will probably have their experts look at the damage,and if Ford is full of it,for instance,that broken piston was not caused by detonation,but rather a bubble in the casting,they will tell Ford they need to pony up or they are going to end up fixing and suing them to reimburse their money. Ford knowing they have them dead to rights would probably roll over,whereas they might not if I inspected the piston and pointed it out.
Exactly.......


Some people lead the way blindly, Others follow with 20/20 vision

Aaron S.
2011 5.0| MT82| White/Saddle|HID|Brembo|3.73| GT/CS Fascia| Saleen Grill| DynaTech LT's and O/R X| AFCO Aluminum Radiator | J&M LCA's & RELO's|Hurst Billet + | Eibach Pro Springs| KONI STR-T |Bama93| Airaid| 255/40/19(f)285/35/19(r) Kuhmo ECSTA XS|

Gone but not forgotten
|08 Mustang GT, MT Black| 05 IS 300 MT Black| 00 Camaro SS MT Black|95 Acura Integra GSR MT Black | 91 Prelude Si 4WS MT Black|

adspru is offline  
Apprentice
 
Nogi88's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 176
 
Wicked400, did you have any tranny work done?


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app

2011 PERFORMANCE WHITE GT/CS AUTO - SOLD
Lethal O/R X
Airaid CAI
Bama Tune

2013 GRABBER BLUE BOSS 302 #2316
Full MBRP Exhaust
AED Tune
Nogi88 is offline  
GT Member
5.0L Member
 
OAC_Sparky's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 1,864
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastsumurai View Post
why are we only seeing this on number 8 cylinders.
The theory is that #8 is the farthest from the engine knock sensors. In a custom tune, certain parameters are changed such as knock sensitivity to compensate for, say, installing headers on the car (which will sometimes trigger a "false positive" for detonation). Since the knock sensor is basically a glorified microphone listening for detonation, if you start running too lean on #8 the knock sensor doesn't pull the timing fast enough to compensate and the detonation kills the ring land.

This was an issue with some of the earlier tunes on the market. Some tuners made the assumption that the new 5.0s were "business as usual" and just used the same type of parameter changes they were using on the 4.6L.

"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." ~Benjamin Franklin
2012 Kona Blue Mustang GT
Roush Phase 2 625HP Supercharger | Black OTT Stripe | 400A | 5.0L | 6MT | 3.55 | HID | SP | CP | BBP | EP | RVC
Mods: Forget it .... too much to list!
OAC_Sparky is offline  
Rookie
 
mc111's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2012
Location: mcallen
Posts: 39
 
So is that still the case now?? I thought tuners stopped touching the knock sensor?


Quote:
Originally Posted by OAC_Sparky View Post
The theory is that #8 is the farthest from the engine knock sensors. In a custom tune, certain parameters are changed such as knock sensitivity to compensate for, say, installing headers on the car (which will sometimes trigger a "false positive" for detonation). Since the knock sensor is basically a glorified microphone listening for detonation, if you start running too lean on #8 the knock sensor doesn't pull the timing fast enough to compensate and the detonation kills the ring land.

This was an issue with some of the earlier tunes on the market. Some tuners made the assumption that the new 5.0s were "business as usual" and just used the same type of parameter changes they were using on the 4.6L.


mc111 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a VALID email address for yourself, otherwise you will not receive the necessary confirmation email needed to confirm, validate and activate your new AFM member account.

Failure to provide a VALID email address, will result in the cancellation of your new AFM member account registration.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1