weak U irons on Whiteline's rear sway bar - Page 2 - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-05-2016 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BMVoigt View Post
I looked into whiteline for a panhard bar... Seemed like a good deal price wise but found out they're made in China. That doesn't mean they're worthless but let's be honest, Chinese build quality has fallen faster than their stock market.
The WL adjustable panhard bar is very good actually! I have it along with the brace and it works great (I needed it to adjust the offset of my axle with the 10inch bullitt motorsports). And don't make a mistake: the mere fact that WL produces in China doesn't mean anything re their quality. You only have to set quality standards and to be willing to finance the costs to live up to them. Remember: iPhones are produced in China too.

Regarding the WL sway bar: I have realised that the technician had installed the u-profiles way to much to the center which is a problem of course since the rod then is moved by 2 force vectors, i.e. there's an angle to make matters worse and to work greatly on the u-profiles. I placed them on the outside now for the time being since my bro will make me aluminium parts to replace the profiles (similar to the ones of RTR tactical performance sway bar)

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by csamsh View Post
These swaybars stand up to track use with very large race tires, 1.5g+. I used them for 2 years on my car on 315 Hoosiers, and they were used on the red car below with 335 and 345 Hoosiers. Definitely not a design flaw.

I know of many, many fast track and autocross cars with these bars. If they're installed and inspected correctly I wouldn't worry about using them.
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It's good to hear that they work but I am astonished that in your case the profiles' flanks didn't start to bend when driving on the track. Do you put them on the very outside of the axle?

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Bottom line is the sway bar CANNOT move under any circumstances like this. That's a recipe for disaster.

2014 Premium GT, SGM, Brembo, Auto, Tech, Comfort, etc. GT500s, Steeda UCA, VMP auto tune, 100 shot on BBR tune, best et: 11.38 at 120.85

2012 GT, Candy Red, Brembo, 3.73, Tech, Comfort, etc. Procal tune, Roush upper, UMI LCAs, Steeda red bracket, GT500s, 28X10X16 Hoosier slicks, best et: 11.91 at 115.23 RIP
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016 Thread Starter
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Bottom line is the sway bar CANNOT move under any circumstances like this. That's a recipe for disaster.
Why is that?
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This is the risk I see: You are putting a serious side load on the axle while cornering, shifting it in relation to the body. The sway bar slides along the axle tube like this one did. You relieve that side load and the sway bar maybe sticks the axle where you left it, forces on, screwing up the geometry of the rear and driving you off the track.

2014 Premium GT, SGM, Brembo, Auto, Tech, Comfort, etc. GT500s, Steeda UCA, VMP auto tune, 100 shot on BBR tune, best et: 11.38 at 120.85

2012 GT, Candy Red, Brembo, 3.73, Tech, Comfort, etc. Procal tune, Roush upper, UMI LCAs, Steeda red bracket, GT500s, 28X10X16 Hoosier slicks, best et: 11.91 at 115.23 RIP
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One of the things that the sway bar does is try to transfer vertical forces from one side the car to the other or load transfer/sharing of forces acting on the springs. Thus yes the attachment points should be as far out as possible to lower the force in the connection hardware. I call them U-brackets. Body twist Force/Distance between U-brackets or End Links = Force in U-Brackets or End Links.

2013 GT, Track Pack, Recaros, Kooks Axlebacks, Airaid CAI, BMR Rear Adj. LCAs, BMR Relocation Brackets, JLT Oil Separator(s), Barton 2 Post Shifter Bracket, Steeda Motor Mounts, Barton Shifter, JHR Clutch line, BMR adj. UCA and Mount, Kooks 1 3/4 headers/catted H, DSS Al Shaft, BMR Loop, Vogtland Sport Springs front/BMR rear, Strange Adj. Struts/Shocks, Extended ball joints, Steeda Bumpsteer Kit, Whiteline Tranny Mount Bushing, Borla Overaxles, BMR Watts, Vorshlag 3" Ducts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5LHO View Post
This is the risk I see: You are putting a serious side load on the axle while cornering, shifting it in relation to the body. The sway bar slides along the axle tube like this one did. You relieve that side load and the sway bar maybe sticks the axle where you left it, forces on, screwing up the geometry of the rear and driving you off the track.
I thought the panhard bar and panhard bar brace or a watts link was the main member to keep the rear axle from shifting laterally relative to the body of the car. I guess I can kind of see how the sway bar helps resist this also, however it is very weak spring/member in comparison to a pan hard bar/brace or a watts link which act as compression members only, not compression and bending.

2013 GT, Track Pack, Recaros, Kooks Axlebacks, Airaid CAI, BMR Rear Adj. LCAs, BMR Relocation Brackets, JLT Oil Separator(s), Barton 2 Post Shifter Bracket, Steeda Motor Mounts, Barton Shifter, JHR Clutch line, BMR adj. UCA and Mount, Kooks 1 3/4 headers/catted H, DSS Al Shaft, BMR Loop, Vogtland Sport Springs front/BMR rear, Strange Adj. Struts/Shocks, Extended ball joints, Steeda Bumpsteer Kit, Whiteline Tranny Mount Bushing, Borla Overaxles, BMR Watts, Vorshlag 3" Ducts
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016 Thread Starter
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The panhard bar keeps the axle in track laterally. The sway bar keeps (or tries to keep) both wheels on the ground while cornering.
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Yes, that's the intention of the sway bar. The axle still moves laterally related to the body under cornering, even with a phb. If the sway bar moved laterally on the axle under load, I think it could jam the axle and not allow it to recenter positively when the load is released.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-07-2016 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PMDmustang13 View Post
One of the things that the sway bar does is try to transfer vertical forces from one side the car to the other or load transfer/sharing of forces acting on the springs. Thus yes the attachment points should be as far out as possible to lower the force in the connection hardware. I call them U-brackets. Body twist Force/Distance between U-brackets or End Links = Force in U-Brackets or End Links.


Thank you for the confirmation! I thought so much.
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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-07-2016 Thread Starter
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Yes, that's the intention of the sway bar. The axle still moves laterally related to the body under cornering, even with a phb. If the sway bar moved laterally on the axle under load, I think it could jam the axle and not allow it to recenter positively when the load is released.


I see your point but then again would you think that the axle really moves that much laterally with the panhard bar holding it in place? Furthermore I would think that either the joints of the endlinks and/or the flexible part of the sway bar will first "react" to the lateral movement of the axle before the part of the sway bar attached to the axle would move the latter.
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Do you want ANY chance of that rear suspension binding up in its action, in any way? That's what used to be lethal on the old Fox body cars; they had bind built in from the factory.

The Panhard bar actually forces the axle to move laterally under suspension load, because the end describes an arc, due to the angle of the PHB. This is why people go Watt's Link. So, even absent of lateral load force vectors, the axle is moving in an out in an arc under suspension action. Extra lateral movement due to compression of the bushings from sideloading just adds to this.

2014 Premium GT, SGM, Brembo, Auto, Tech, Comfort, etc. GT500s, Steeda UCA, VMP auto tune, 100 shot on BBR tune, best et: 11.38 at 120.85

2012 GT, Candy Red, Brembo, 3.73, Tech, Comfort, etc. Procal tune, Roush upper, UMI LCAs, Steeda red bracket, GT500s, 28X10X16 Hoosier slicks, best et: 11.91 at 115.23 RIP
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 03-07-2016 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5LHO View Post
The Panhard bar actually forces the axle to move laterally under suspension load, because the end describes an arc, due to the angle of the PHB. This is why people go Watt's Link. So, even absent of lateral load force vectors, the axle is moving in an out in an arc under suspension action. Extra lateral movement due to compression of the bushings from sideloading just adds to this.
Now I really see your point! Actually one should go and ask WL and/or RTR if they have considered that movement when designing that system...
... Then again, reconsidering that the arch described by the ph bar is almout neglectible on the lateral scale, maybe the system still works quite alright...

Last edited by uss tigershark; 03-07-2016 at 05:41 PM.
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The whiteline system according to csamsh has been tested with his extensive road course experience with the u-brackets spaced as far apart as possible to minimize the forces exerted. There probably is not a big safety factor against yielding of the u-bracket components so if they are too close together it would not take much to bend them in my opinion.

2013 GT, Track Pack, Recaros, Kooks Axlebacks, Airaid CAI, BMR Rear Adj. LCAs, BMR Relocation Brackets, JLT Oil Separator(s), Barton 2 Post Shifter Bracket, Steeda Motor Mounts, Barton Shifter, JHR Clutch line, BMR adj. UCA and Mount, Kooks 1 3/4 headers/catted H, DSS Al Shaft, BMR Loop, Vogtland Sport Springs front/BMR rear, Strange Adj. Struts/Shocks, Extended ball joints, Steeda Bumpsteer Kit, Whiteline Tranny Mount Bushing, Borla Overaxles, BMR Watts, Vorshlag 3" Ducts
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2016 Thread Starter
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Now I have installed the new aluminium brackets and you know what? Everything works fine again! No noise, no lateral movements, no nothing...
and here you can see the result as well as the original brackets bent under use...(okay the pictures are not so good)

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Last edited by uss tigershark; 04-30-2016 at 04:08 PM.
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