NA engine build for street/track - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-21-2016 Thread Starter
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NA engine build for street/track

I had started a thread looking for info on a FI track engine build and based on feed back I have changed to a NA build.

Back ground, I am new to Mustangs and just bought my 2011 GT a couple weeks ago with a few holes in the block, oil pan, etc. So the block and pan are toast. Engine was pulled last week. The 3 and 4 rods were broken and I think the 7 was bent. Heads are good, but have 8 bent valves on 3 and 4. Crank is in perfect shape.

The car will be built as an occasional track car and occasional driver. Goal is 500 rwhp.
Getting engine sorted first so that I can get it back on the road. Will be posting about suspension, brakes, etc in the furute...

So this is my plan. I have a small specialty shop that I am working with on the build. He has not done a Coyote before, but has build/rebuilt/modified a few of my race engines (351W, 2.0L Pinto, LS2) in the past as well as LS street motors for my dad's hot road and my Jeep.

This is what we have planed

Short block:
-Used F150 Coyote Block (bought for $500 as a disassembled short block with crank and pistons). Block is in great condition

-Mahle forged H beam rods and forged pistons - 11.0 to 1 CR. Should we look at 11.5 to 1 CR pistons? I would like to beable to use 91 pump gas.

-Will put in billet oil pump gears

Estimated cost $4100US

Heads:
-hand ported and enlarged valves (0.5mm and 1mm)

-comp Stage 2 or 3 cams. I have read mixed reviews on the low speed drivabiliy of the stage 3 cams. I would like to be able to cruise to the grocery store, my kids hockey/dance, etc.

-MMR head cooling mod

Estimated cost $4200US

So long block will be around $8300US.

Bolts ons:
-Mushimoto Performance Rad

-Headers/Xpipe - I cant decide. I thought either kooks or AHR, but I couldn't find dyno comparisons in "control" conditions to suggest they are any better than the cheaper brands like Pypes. Even found a few that complained about Kooks fitment. Going catless in the xpipe.

- exhaust/mufflers - I need a valved or dual mode set up as I don't like pissing off my neighbors or waking up my family, but I like it loud with a nice sound. The only valved system I can find is the Varex system. Any others out there? I am not really into cuts before the mufflers.

-Cobra Jet intake Manifold

-BBK GT500 Intake Manifold

-SR Performance Height adjustable Poly engine mounts

-BMC carbon fiber hood vents

- Whiteline Positive Shift Kit (more a chassis mod)

- Moroso Oil Pan

Bolt ons are approx $3200US

Total is $11,500US


What are the thoughts on my build? Hoping to start ordering parts late this week...

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-21-2016
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Short block:
-Used F150 Coyote Block (bought for $500 as a disassembled short block with crank and pistons). Block is in great condition


Until the block is magnafluxed and /or x-rayed, you do not know what the condition is.

-Mahle forged H beam rods and forged pistons - 11.0 to 1 CR. Should we look at 11.5 to 1 CR pistons? I would like to beable to use 91 pump gas.


This will be dependent on the actual cam (not advertised specs), & cylinder PSI

-Will put in billet oil pump gears


I would prefer to use a gear drive that is spec'd by the cam mfg


Heads:
-hand ported and enlarged valves (0.5mm and 1mm)


For serious racing, CNC only with hand finishing....and enlarging the valves, the amount you are spec's is almost nothing...flow specs on the head vs cam is going to determine what the real need is

-comp Stage 2 or 3 cams. I have read mixed reviews on the low speed drivabiliy of the stage 3 cams. I would like to be able to cruise to the grocery store, my kids hockey/dance, etc.





IMHO, Comp is a mass production (McDonald's type) company which - seems to have experience more cam lobe failures than most and places the blame on the low ZDDP in the oils...then experiences valve spring failure, and it just does a cycle.


With regards to their cams billets, I highly suspect that they are also using Chinese & they do not include Parkerizing their cams unless you want to pay extra for it (Parkerizing is the final step and a crucial step to help break the cam in- a heated acid bath that microscopically etches the metal surface and adds a very thin layer of graphite coating which allows the cam lube to hang onto and penetrate into the cam surface during cam break in) unless you specifically request and pay additional money for it.

This is a not so unusual posting about Comp and their components…..



http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/773426-rip-camshaft.html


IMHO- If the cam is cut on Comps 8620 core and has a copper colored base to it, you should be OK. If it looks like a standard silver / metal camshaft all throughout you probably got one of their cheaper 5150 cores that won't last 20K miles before wiping out and failing. The 8620 cores run $400+ each.


To validate this point further as to the “McDonald’s environment” of which operate:





Tech Support Issue:


http://saacforum.com/index.php?topic=901.10;wap2





Valvetrain Failure:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcvWtQtsm-Q





Classic Cam Failure:


http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/more-issues-lets-talk-cam-failure-48577.html





Cam Lobe Fracturing:


http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=458553





Cam Failure:


http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=121078





FAIL Comp cams trunion- Rockwell hardness low:


http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-tech-performance/3546465-fail-comp-cams-trunion-upgrade.html





2nd Cam Failure:


http://www.performanceboats.com/gn7-dyno/83762-after-second-comp-failure.html





Major problems with Comp Cams hydraulic roller lifters :


http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,61280.0.html





COMP CAMS FAIL (endless)


http://truestreetcars.com/forums/general-automotive/26521-comp-cams-fail.html





Comp Cams Ultra Gold Aluminum Roller Rocker Failure


http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388981





Comp Cams 918 spring failures


http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/ls1-based-engine-tech-19/comp-cams-918-spring-failures-526319/


Cam Failure:


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389981




-MMR head cooling mod,,..




Estimated cost $4200US

So long block will be around $8300US.

Bolts ons:
-Mushimoto Performance Rad


Once you have your engine blueprinted, then install a proper cooling system.

-Headers/Xpipe - I cant decide. I thought either kooks or AHR, but I couldn't find dyno comparisons in "control" conditions to suggest they are any better than the cheaper brands like Pypes. Even found a few that complained about Kooks fitment. Going catless in the xpipe.



Here's a link to a "Real Test" that verifies....on a 700+ hp engine......no gain or loss of with or without the cats!

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/header_cat_xpipe_exhaust_tests.pdf





The myth about high flow cats





http://www.catalyticconverter.org/news/news_page.cfm?Key=catalytic_converter-&News=89




Exhaust- CATS/Part II



The oem units are already "Hi Flow cats"....you won't change a thing by swapping. The "H" pipe really does not change the tone per sey..........





The H-Pipe really plays very little in terms of performance- nor does it reduce backpressure in any way- it was originally introduced to equalize the pressure between the two pipes, inducing a scavenging effect, but in reality, while it did improve some things a little, all it really, the only thing it really was effective at was to reduce noise- nothing more.



An X-pipe will increase HP if it is installed at the "area of confusion"- but that area is identified by painting a small strip on the exhaust pipes about 1/2 way between the engine and the axle- the area of confusion will cause increased heat and blister/burn the paint at that location- that's where the H or X pipe would be installed- and eliminates the air flow disturbance by sending alternating pulses in that location which acts as a "vacuum" if you will to push & scavenge the remaining and incoming air out.
.







- exhaust/mufflers - I need a valved or dual mode set up as I don't like pissing off my neighbors or waking up my family, but I like it loud with a nice sound. The only valved system I can find is the Varex system. Any others out there? I am not really into cuts before the mufflers.


Why, when a good quality unit (like Allied) will flow every bit of what a straight pipe will?

-Cobra Jet intake Manifold


Better get a blueprint 1st....look up HRM coyote manifold test...what they thought would produce power caused an actual loss.

-BBK GT500 Intake Manifold


see comment above

-SR Performance Height adjustable Poly engine mounts

-BMC carbon fiber hood vents

- Whiteline Positive Shift Kit (more a chassis mod)

- Moroso Oil Pan


ok for the rest............

Bolt ons are approx $3200US


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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-21-2016
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Can't magnaflux an aluminum block!

Anyway- on the headers, I think the gains in power when you spend money are minimal. What you do get (with ARH anyway, I haven't been blown away by Kooks on a coyote) are fitment and longevity. The cheap stuff doesn't fit, scrapes, and falls apart.

If you can swing it, do a Tremec Magnum XL instead of the Getrag. Since it's all out of the car anyway, and since you probably need to buy a clutch and flywheel anyway......

2002 C5 Z51. MCS 2WNR TT2 coilovers, 18x11 Forgestars, 315's, yada yada. Built Z06 T56. Bolt ons. Coming soon to a CAM event near you.

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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-22-2016 Thread Starter
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Good food for thought Beechkid.

The block is out the back door of a ford dealer for a warranty claim. It was the a top end failure, ford supplied a reman and the short block was fine.

I am not building a serious race engine. I have had a few of those and spent tens of thousands of dollars building and testing them on engine dynos trying to find 1hp. Not the goal here. This engine is going in a toy.

I did have a comp cam lose lobes in a 351W race engine. We caught it before any subsequent damage was done as there was material in the oberg filter. It was replaced by comp and raced for the rest of the year with no problems. We switched to LS2 based engines for the next 4 years with comp cams in them and had no cam issues. I dont know what the core is for these cams. I have not seen anyone post about a cam failures with these cams.

Good article by Kenne Bell. I don't think that that can be universally applied. I also don't believe that headers or exhaust add much power. LTs, high flow cats, no cats, mufflers all impact level of sound and type of sound. I loved my after market dual mode mufflers that I had on my 2008 M3. Quiet with the valve closed and LOUD with it open.

Cobra Jet intake vs Boss. Dyno Results- Boss Intake Manifold to Cobra Jet Intake Manifold
I guess I dont know what the tuning situation before and after was.

cmamsh,

Not planning on a trans swap now. Will see how it holds up. Clutch, flywheel and pressure plate only have ~1200 miles on them.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-22-2016
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oh well you're good then on the tranny/clutch

2002 C5 Z51. MCS 2WNR TT2 coilovers, 18x11 Forgestars, 315's, yada yada. Built Z06 T56. Bolt ons. Coming soon to a CAM event near you.

2013 F150 6.2L. 9mpg.

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-22-2016
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You're going to have a hard time hanging with the Z in the mustang unless he does have heat issues or can't drive.
500hp on 91 probably isn't going to happen. It's a stretch even on 93.
However, you're pretty close to the same goals as me, just a badass fun track mustang.

Me and my tuner came up with:
Cobrajet manifold + monoblade TB (I'm going to get the cj ported, even though he doesn't think it will help, others have seen +10hp out of it)
custom grind cams (its only a few hundred more than comp and we can pick what will work best for this application)
Head and valve work
ARH headers
93 octane, some torco on the track just for extra safety.
If heat becomes an issue we'll add an air/oil cooler.
Car is a track pack so it has the boss radiator/oil cooler(heater), 14" brembos and a torsen diff.
Should come in just a hair under 500whp, if we get lucky and cross 500 it will be just barely.

Other stuff:
BMR handling springs, koni yellow shocks (will probably change to bilsteins when one fails eventually)
BMR rear upper and lower control arms and panhard (will change to bmr watts link soon)
Forgestar Cf10 19x10 wheels with 285/35 RE11s - front needs a 5mm spacer to clear 14" brembos.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-22-2016 Thread Starter
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noldevin,
Thanks for the reply. Ah, I gave up on hanging with the Z06 in terms of power. I can definitely out drive him ...
yes, 500hp is a stretch goal and nice if we can get there, but I am trying to do this economically.
Who is doing your custom grind cams and can you share specs?
What spring rates are you running?
I was looking the Fays2 watts link. What do you like about the BRM?
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-22-2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csamsh View Post
Can't magnaflux an aluminum block!

Anyway- on the headers, I think the gains in power when you spend money are minimal. What you do get (with ARH anyway, I haven't been blown away by Kooks on a coyote) are fitment and longevity. The cheap stuff doesn't fit, scrapes, and falls apart.

If you can swing it, do a Tremec Magnum XL instead of the Getrag. Since it's all out of the car anyway, and since you probably need to buy a clutch and flywheel anyway......
Magnaflux Corporation sells dyes that essentially does the same thing...

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-23-2016 Thread Starter
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I have seen a few Dyno results with 500rwhp with the only difference from my build is CNC ported heads.

Anyway, looking over my list I have decided to not enlarge the valves and go with boss intake mani (port matched and smoothed) instead of CJ mani. I can use the stock TB and save on the cost of the CJ vs Boss and getting a new TB.

More realistically, 450rwhp is a better target for these mods?


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Porting the boss manifold isn't going to do a whole lot for you on the stock TB as the TB is the choke point there. I would still suggest going for the CJ, they pop up used all the time at a much better price, and you can save quite a bit of money by going for one of the twin TBs instead of the monoblade. You should still be in the 450-475 range with cams. The 91 octane will be your weak point.
I don't have any cam specs yet. I just ordered headers, wheels, and tires, so the rest of the build is a ways off.

Currently running the BMR handling springs, according to BMR: - 240 lb/inch front linear spring rate - 200 lb/inch rear dual-rate
I will go with the BMR watts because most of my rear suspension is BMR and I am happy with the quality of the product. I also want to do the poly/ball combo to keep it on the quiet side, and the fays appears to be all ball joint. It is primarily a street car after all. If I didn't do the BMR it would probably be the Whiteline instead.
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Hope this is in time to help you. First thing, is don't listen to anybody on here about building your engine because without a doubt, they don't know what they're talking about. I've done it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlP7NNdiQ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfpM9IUoI4k

And I was the first private individual to get more than 500 horsepower rwhp out of this engine. I have read several posts on here and every single one of them is wrong in whole or in part.

1) You don't need a throttle body just get a boss or a Cobra Jet manifold with a CAI

2) upgrade your valve springs 4 high RPM application because that's how you're going to get horsepower out of your engine. On a 2011 GT there's a hard stop at 7750 RPM. You will have a hard time going beyond that.

3) As usual csamh is often wrong but seldom in doubt. he said that Kook headers won't give you much. They gave me 30 hp by themselves Dynotested. God, I wish he would stop posting so much, because virtually everything that I read of his is absolutely wrong. And In general anybody who has thousands of posts in hundreds of forums is spendin more time doing that then working on his car,

4) Port your heads. There are varieties of companies and engine builders that will do this for you I actually sent my head's to Livernois and they gave me a stage 1 porting.

5) Raising the compression ratio on your Pistons isn't necessary however forging your bottom end is always a good idea and that's what I did to mine. I am in California and have to run 91 octane gas with a lot of additives in it. So going up and compression was not an option. But I got 522 rear wheel horsepower on 91 octane pump gas without having to increase the compression ratio.

6) I use comp stage 2 cams. Now one of the posters went off on how crummy Comp Cams are. I currently have 22000 miles on my engine. Tracked several times it's been on the dyno several times and it's completed in high-speed events . . . no problems. I can pull up a thread dissing any product Or demonstrating a product failure. So what? The general consensus is Comp Cams are just fine. Again, beware of posters with a thousand + posts I am not saying their always wrong, but think about it, what kind of person publishes thousands of posts? No life. And desperate to be recognized. They will scour the internet looking for proof to validate their bias and then they feed it to you link by link.

7) You will have driveability problems with stage three cams. Stage two cams will give you some low speed driveability problems on a cold engine as well. Stick to Stage two.
So do the above and reach your goals and as for the rest of you who have not done this or have no personal experience with any of these parts you opine about, become a politician and join a professional group that makes a living at not knowing what the hell they're talking about.
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Last edited by lawman; 05-05-2016 at 08:26 PM. Reason: typos
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In fact, I just retuned the car to get more midrange torque and rev limited at 7500 for safety and longevity reasons and 22 thousand miles later I am still getting over 501 rwhp. Damn, I did all this despite my kooks headers, comp cams and high flow cats! beware of misinformation and self appointed forum mavens with thousands of posts. They are useless. Listen only to people that have done it and have personal experience with the parts you are inquiring about. You might also want to look up Twisted neck who has also done this and has his own unique personal experience to share as he did some things differently. Also, as to the legitimacy of these dyno numbers. On that exact dyno and you can look it up on youtube/ A 2013 GT 500 (HP 662)dynoed at 560 rwhp as opposed to my 522. That is virtually exactly a 15% drive train loss on that dyno, which puts my crank horsepower at [email protected] All naturally aspirated and all in contravention of the knowledgeless nattering nabobs of internet misinformation.
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2011 Mustang GT 5.0 N/A 522 rwhp, 378rwt, Boss Intake Manifold, Comp Stage Two Cams, Livernois Ported Heads, Kooks Headers and X pipe, Wiseco Forged Pistons, Manley Rods, Polished / Balanced Forged Crank, Boss Valve Springs, Boss Oil Cooler, Boss Oil Pan, Cortex/JRI SA Coilovers, Boss 302 Springs, Boss 302r steering rack, Boss 302s front lower control arms, Cortex Watts Link, Cortex Torque Arm, Cortex Adjustable Lower Control Arm, MM K Member,MM Caster Camber Plates, Torsen T2r Differential,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman View Post
2) upgrade your valve springs 4 high RPM application because that's how you're going to get horsepower out of your engine. On a 2011 GT there's a hard stop at 7750 RPM. You will have a hard time going beyond that.
For those that have the desire to do it, HP Tuners has a software patch that allows ~8300 on GT strategies.
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Lawman you can call us all wrong if you want but just because you have gotten 500rwhp doesn't mean you're suddenly the only one who knows anything. It's perfectly possible to have a lot of knowledge without doing it yourself first, it's called research, and some people are pretty good at it. I'm going to say that YOU are wrong, because you flat out stated that you can get a cobra jet intake without getting a throttle body. I bet that's a pretty interesting setup...
You basically told him to do the same thing I did except different cams (and stock throttle body??)... but all of us knowledgeless nattering nabobs are wrong I guess...

Your comparison to the gt500 dyno... was that on the same day within the same couple hours? If not the conditions could have been different and it means nothing. That's also assuming that it is impossible to play with dyno numbers.
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Noldevin You are correct on one thing. Cobra jet is different. I am using a Boss intake. No throttle body required. Touche. But the throttle body presents extra tuning issues that may affect driveability. I too, have personal experience with this, having used the Ford racing Throttle Body on the Boss Intake and eventually abandoning it for the stock one. So even there, I have personal knowledge. Internet research relies too often on third and fourth hand information. Often people have their own reason for spreading misinformation and when you rely on fourth hand B.S. and then advise others on it then you are part of the problem.

I have first hand knowledge. So does twisted Neck and a few others. I am not simply reposting other people's posts or relying on something someone told me. I did it myself. there are other ways to get to 500 hp NA, e85, the bottle, cobrajet, etc . . . And if you want advice on that, best speak to the people that have done it. I have done it this way and I was the first to do it this way. Doesn't make me an expert but it does make me legitimately knowledgeable. Which is more than can be said about the knowledgeless nattering nabobs of net reposters.

As for the dyno comparison being Meaningless? I live in Southern California, weather doesn't change much. Pretty much 80 degrees every day, humidity low. The dyno pulls were within the same general time period. So if there is a 1-3% variance does it really matter. Only to you, because I called you out and now you have to find a crack in the armour. Pretty weak. But I can understand why you might think that, given the horrible weather you have in New Jersey and the wide temperature fluctuations throwing off dyno results right and left. No such problems here. Bottom line: two cars, same general weather, same dyno, equals legit reliable data within an acceptable deviation.

And if you are accusing me of playing with dyno numbers then that is the last argument of a scoundrel there because that inference is an attack on my honesty, which again, you are in no position to judge. On top of that the same person that posted my dyno video posted a video of the GT 500 so you can see for yourself. Funny how the dyno just happens to measure the GT 500's RWHP with almost exactly a 15% drivetrain loss which also just happens to be the generally accepted ratio of drivetrain loss on our cars. That is a legit load bearing dyno and it has been proven and you can see the results.


Last edited by lawman; 05-06-2016 at 03:26 PM. Reason: typo
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