AdvancTrac almost caused a major wreck - Page 4 - Ford Mustang Forum
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Originally Posted by 11Red3.7 View Post
Sorry to hear that Solid. More Cool mode and not dealership, right?
I'm trying to stay positive, I know he's an advisor not the service tech, but every time I have to re-explain the problems it's like I'm training a brand new maintenance apprentice.
Getting a few exterior mods done to my vehicle. My patience though, is being tested. :p

Any new progress?


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I am having a hard time figuring out when AdvanceTrac intercedes and when it doesn't. I have had my car for over a week now and have 800 miles on it. Once I got past 500, I have been driving it harder and harder. I have chirped 2nd, 3rd, and 4th several times. I have had the rear slide on me a few times as well. All of this was with AdvanceTrac on.

A few days ago I was in a tight turn and something caught my eye. It was the tc light blinking rapidly. As I exited the turn, it was off. I never felt the system compensate for loss of traction tough. It's not like the wheels were screeching. Maybe it was minimal input on the systems part.

Then 2 days ago, I was coming off a light on a clear road. I wanted to air it out, but on my shift from 1st to 2nd, the car completely bogged and the TC light was on. It was a fast an aggressive shift, but I have done it in the past and never had AvdavceTrac kick in like that. It was a bit disturbing. If someone was following me and trying to keep up, they would have ended up in my back seat.

Since that 2nd incident, I have been disabling TC by pressing the button once. After reading the manual last night, I see that you can enter Sport mode by pressing it twice while stopped and your foot on the brake. I am going to try that setting for a while and see if I get any intrusive inputs from the AdvanceTrac system. It's nice ti have a safeguard, but in regular mode it is too Jekyll and Hyde for me.

Does anyone else drive in Sport mode for the majority of their time? Has anyone else had the regular AdvanceTrac bog them on a redline shift from 1-2?

BTW, I have a GT with the track pack (3.73 gears).


-Ed-
'13 Mustang GT Premium ordered 5/22/2012, VIN 6/8/2012 Window Sticker 6/22/2012 Build Date: 6/29/2012 1srt ETA 7/4/2012 2nd ETA 7/14/2012 3rd ETA 7/25/2012 4th ETA 7/26/2012 Delivered to Dealer 7/17/2012 Picked up 7/23/2012
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Whenever I do any sort of 'sporty' driving, I disable AdvanceTrac altogether as the behavior really is unpredictable and it can retard acceleration while doing it with such finesse that at times you can't tell its on unless you see the light blinking.

Its designed for keeping 'normal' drivers from losing control. Trying to do sporty maneuvers with it may as well just cause you to have less control of your vehicle.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicketybam View Post
I am having a hard time figuring out when AdvanceTrac intercedes and when it doesn't. I have had my car for over a week now and have 800 miles on it. Once I got past 500, I have been driving it harder and harder. I have chirped 2nd, 3rd, and 4th several times. I have had the rear slide on me a few times as well. All of this was with AdvanceTrac on.

A few days ago I was in a tight turn and something caught my eye. It was the tc light blinking rapidly. As I exited the turn, it was off. I never felt the system compensate for loss of traction tough. It's not like the wheels were screeching. Maybe it was minimal input on the systems part.

Then 2 days ago, I was coming off a light on a clear road. I wanted to air it out, but on my shift from 1st to 2nd, the car completely bogged and the TC light was on. It was a fast an aggressive shift, but I have done it in the past and never had AvdavceTrac kick in like that. It was a bit disturbing. If someone was following me and trying to keep up, they would have ended up in my back seat.

Since that 2nd incident, I have been disabling TC by pressing the button once. After reading the manual last night, I see that you can enter Sport mode by pressing it twice while stopped and your foot on the brake. I am going to try that setting for a while and see if I get any intrusive inputs from the AdvanceTrac system. It's nice ti have a safeguard, but in regular mode it is too Jekyll and Hyde for me.

Does anyone else drive in Sport mode for the majority of their time? Has anyone else had the regular AdvanceTrac bog them on a redline shift from 1-2?

BTW, I have a GT with the track pack (3.73 gears).
i drive my v6 PP in sportmode or traction/advancetrac turned all the way off. I hate havin a computer intervene on my driving for exactly this reason, i wish there was a way to keep it off and not have to do it everytime i get in the car

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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidhadriel View Post
Whenever I do any sort of 'sporty' driving, I disable AdvanceTrac altogether as the behavior really is unpredictable and it can retard acceleration while doing it with such finesse that at times you can't tell its on unless you see the light blinking.

Its designed for keeping 'normal' drivers from losing control. Trying to do sporty maneuvers with it may as well just cause you to have less control of your vehicle.
My last car (C6 Z06) had a "competition mode" that disabled traction control all together and reduced the amount of yaw control. It's what I used I when I went to the strip with it and it was the perfect mode for me and that car. Turning everything off was beyond my capability as that car gave little warning before the rear end snapped lose.

I was hoping that sport mode in the Mustang would be similar to that. If not, I'm turning everything off. Thanks for the replies.

-Ed-
'13 Mustang GT Premium ordered 5/22/2012, VIN 6/8/2012 Window Sticker 6/22/2012 Build Date: 6/29/2012 1srt ETA 7/4/2012 2nd ETA 7/14/2012 3rd ETA 7/25/2012 4th ETA 7/26/2012 Delivered to Dealer 7/17/2012 Picked up 7/23/2012
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Normally when I read something like "advancetrac almost killed me" etc. I think to myself what was this DB doing.... Yours sounds sincere, I hope you get it worked out... I'll chime in to set the record straight that advancetrac has "kept me alive".... Best of Luck OP, hope they get your issues figure out.


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Normally when I read something like "advancetrac almost killed me" etc. I think to myself what was this DB doing.... Yours sounds sincere, I hope you get it worked out... I'll chime in to set the record straight that advancetrac has "kept me alive".... Best of Luck OP, hope they get your issues figure out.
I am the same way. When I read about someone complaining about TC/ESC causing them to lose control it makes me wonder what the outcome would have been had there been no intervention. However in this case the malfunction did infact appear completely on it's own according to the OP's description.

I have not had a customer car behave quite like the OP's but have had plenty of similar issues. Usually what happens with something like a wheelspeed sensor fault is the ABS tries pulsing the brakes no matter how light you touch the pedal. This causes a severe reduction in the amount of pressure the driver can put into the brakes and indeed makes for a very dangerous driving experience.
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Normally when I read something like "advancetrac almost killed me" etc. I think to myself what was this DB doing.... Yours sounds sincere, I hope you get it worked out... I'll chime in to set the record straight that advancetrac has "kept me alive".... Best of Luck OP, hope they get your issues figure out.
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Originally Posted by Grimace427 View Post
I am the same way. When I read about someone complaining about TC/ESC causing them to lose control it makes me wonder what the outcome would have been had there been no intervention. However in this case the malfunction did infact appear completely on it's own according to the OP's description.

I have not had a customer car behave quite like the OP's but have had plenty of similar issues. Usually what happens with something like a wheelspeed sensor fault is the ABS tries pulsing the brakes no matter how light you touch the pedal. This causes a severe reduction in the amount of pressure the driver can put into the brakes and indeed makes for a very dangerous driving experience.
I don't own a Performance Package , but I almost always just tap the TC button once but leave AdvancTrac on. I think it was last year a member on here lost control on the 1/4 mile which ended up killing her competetor in the other lane. Her husband wrote up the details on here, since then I mostly leave AdvancTrac engaged.

The first time it "engaged" I was accelerating somewhat aggressively, but come on! I'm pretty much stock with 2.73s!!!!
The second time a couple minutes later I was very, very slowly accelerating cause I was nervous as hell, and the brakes behaved like the car thought I was in an uncontrolable spin, but I had been driving smooth, straight, and flat. When each individual brake slammed then I was swirving almost out of control. If I had been doing 70mph things could have gone south really fast, like the Ford Exploders of old. The more I think about it the scarier it gets, it is supposed to be a safety system that intervenes when things go wrong. But if a tiny glitch in the system causes this kind of thing, I'd rather not have the safety Nanny at all.
My service advisor just now called and they can not duplicate it at all, have no codes, and Ford he says has no advice on how to proceed. Nervous as hell to drive this car home, or anywhere else...
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I don't own a Performance Package , but I almost always just tap the TC button once but leave AdvancTrac on. I think it was last year a member on here lost control on the 1/4 mile which ended up killing her competetor in the other lane. Her husband wrote up the details on here, since then I mostly leave AdvancTrac engaged.

The first time it "engaged" I was accelerating somewhat aggressively, but come on! I'm pretty much stock with 2.73s!!!!
The second time a couple minutes later I was very, very slowly accelerating cause I was nervous as hell, and the brakes behaved like the car thought I was in an uncontrolable spin, but I had been driving smooth, straight, and flat. When each individual brake slammed then I was swirving almost out of control. If I had been doing 70mph things could have gone south really fast, like the Ford Exploders of old. The more I think about it the scarier it gets, it is supposed to be a safety system that intervenes when things go wrong. But if a tiny glitch in the system causes this kind of thing, I'd rather not have the safety Nanny at all.
My service advisor just now called and they can not duplicate it at all, have no codes, and Ford he says has no advice on how to proceed. Nervous as hell to drive this car home, or anywhere else...
For something that much of a safety issue, I would insist on them testing each wheelspeed sensor via oscilloscope pattern as well as swap in a new AdvanceTrac control unit for diagnostic purposes. Get Deysha to light a fire beneath their butts. I understand the difficult to duplicate and diagnose concerns being a tech myself, but for things safety related we check until we are certain it is fixed.
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Quote:
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For something that much of a safety issue, I would insist on them testing each wheelspeed sensor via oscilloscope pattern as well as swap in a new AdvanceTrac control unit for diagnostic purposes. Get Deysha to light a fire beneath their butts. I understand the difficult to duplicate and diagnose concerns being a tech myself, but for things safety related we check until we are certain it is fixed.
This x1000. Something that can potentially cause a fatal crash should really be looked into beyond the general "uh, we don't hear anything strange" kind of inspection. Get a hold of Deysha if you have to.

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Quote:
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The 5-second press is not turning off Advance Trac but rather a user-request for the reduction of ESC intervention. The hardware is still active for ABS and a wheelspeed sensor fault can still cause the symptoms the OP is experiencing.

The only way to completely turn off ESC/TC/ABS would be to cut power to the electrohydraulic unit under the hood either by pulling the fuse or disconnecting the connector at the unit itself.

The OP can always try the 5-second button press, it might be enough to get to the dealer.
Advancetrac is an electronic control system in the ECU, and holding down the button for 5 seconds DOES turn that system off.

ABS is NOT part of Advancetrac, so no, turning off Advancetrac will not disable your ABS system and required components.

Turning off Advancetrac will however prevent the TCS from applying the brakes and shutting off fuel injectors should you spin the tires. It will also shut off the ESC system which would allow you to drift the car, and it will shut off the RSC system so the car will not slam on the brakes and shut off engine ignition should you get sudden violent body roll. Advancetrac CAN be completely disabled, so none of these systems function at any level.
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For something that much of a safety issue, I would insist on them testing each wheelspeed sensor via oscilloscope pattern as well as swap in a new AdvanceTrac control unit for diagnostic purposes. Get Deysha to light a fire beneath their butts. I understand the difficult to duplicate and diagnose concerns being a tech myself, but for things safety related we check until we are certain it is fixed.
Well I have the car back, I'm pretty sure it didn't see any O-scope action. Just the belts under the TSB, and the steering wheel buttons. CND on the shifting and Advanctrac problem. CND is AirForce speak for could not duplicate malfunction.

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This x1000. Something that can potentially cause a fatal crash should really be looked into beyond the general "uh, we don't hear anything strange" kind of inspection. Get a hold of Deysha if you have to.
Deysha contacted my regional customer service rep Steve who I've been in contact with twice. When I picked up the car I drove around for 10 minutes with the service manager. Nothing freaked out, and it shifted pretty well *sigh*...

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Advancetrac is an electronic control system in the ECU, and holding down the button for 5 seconds DOES turn that system off.

ABS is NOT part of Advancetrac, so no, turning off Advancetrac will not disable your ABS system and required components.

Turning off Advancetrac will however prevent the TCS from applying the brakes and shutting off fuel injectors should you spin the tires. It will also shut off the ESC system which would allow you to drift the car, and it will shut off the RSC system so the car will not slam on the brakes and shut off engine ignition should you get sudden violent body roll. Advancetrac CAN be completely disabled, so none of these systems function at any level.
Someone else wrote earlier that holding down the TC button will not completly disable AdvancTrac, he sounded smart enough. I thought when the message center said AdvancTrac Off, that AdvancTrac was completly off.

The car was spotless and freshly waxed when I dropped it off. But apparently the last 5 days it has sat under their sprinklers. Plastic, Glass, and Paint heavily waterspotted. So guess who is about to spend an hour or more cleaning her baby!
Did I mention before that I don't like taking my cars to the dealer?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Red3.7 View Post

Someone else wrote earlier that holding down the TC button will not completly disable AdvancTrac, he sounded smart enough. I thought when the message center said AdvancTrac Off, that AdvancTrac was completly off.

That was the post I was responding to. He may have sounded educated, but he doesn't seem to really understand what Advancetrac is. He said turning it off was really just a reduction of the ESC system. Not only is that incorrect, but ESC is just one of three systems that make up Advancetrac. Also, while ABS is integrated with Advancetrac, it is not directly controlled by the Advancetrac system. Advancetrac can apply the brakes, but it cannot disable the ABS system as ABS operates independently within the ECU.

Advancetrac has a Traction Control System, an Electronic Stability Control, and Roll Stability Control.

Traction Control works off rear wheel spin sensors. If rear wheel spin is detected then TCS will apply the brakes and/or reduce fuel flow and ignition to reduce the wheel spin.

Electronic Stability Control monitors wheel spin sensors on the front tires. When oversteer or undesteer is detected the system will apply one or more brakes on the opposite side of the car to help keep the car from sliding out of control.

Roll Stability Control works off gyroscopes. When it detects sudden or violent body lean it will apply the brakes and shut off fuel and ignition to the engine. When it is activated it is usually the most noticable time that Advancetrac interferes. It can and will literally leave you not only coasting, but slowing down.


These three systems CAN be completely disabled by holding down the Advancetrac button for 6 seconds while holding down the brake pedal at the same time. When completely disabled they will not work at any level and you are free to crash your car without them trying to stop you.



Again though, this does not effect ABS. ABS will always be working unless you physically alter the system such as removing sensors. However, an ABS fault or application would not cause the Advancetrac light to display on the dash, if it had a fault that applied the brake with no pressure on the pedal it would light the red ABS warning light instead and the car will read something along the lines of "Check Traction Control ABS and TC Disabled" on the odometer display.


Hope that clears things up a bit.
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That was the post I was responding to. He may have sounded educated, but he doesn't seem to really understand what Advancetrac is. He said turning it off was really just a reduction of the ESC system. Not only is that incorrect, but ESC is just one of three systems that make up Advancetrac. Also, while ABS is integrated with Advancetrac, it is not directly controlled by the Advancetrac system. Advancetrac can apply the brakes, but it cannot disable the ABS system as ABS operates independently within the ECU.

Advancetrac has a Traction Control System, an Electronic Stability Control, and Roll Stability Control.

Traction Control works off rear wheel spin sensors. If rear wheel spin is detected then TCS will apply the brakes and/or reduce fuel flow and ignition to reduce the wheel spin.

Electronic Stability Control monitors wheel spin sensors on the front tires. When oversteer or undesteer is detected the system will apply one or more brakes on the opposite side of the car to help keep the car from sliding out of control.

Roll Stability Control works off gyroscopes. When it detects sudden or violent body lean it will apply the brakes and shut off fuel and ignition to the engine. When it is activated it is usually the most noticable time that Advancetrac interferes. It can and will literally leave you not only coasting, but slowing down.


These three systems CAN be completely disabled by holding down the Advancetrac button for 6 seconds while holding down the brake pedal at the same time. When completely disabled they will not work at any level and you are free to crash your car without them trying to stop you.



Again though, this does not effect ABS. ABS will always be working unless you physically alter the system such as removing sensors. However, an ABS fault or application would not cause the Advancetrac light to display on the dash, if it had a fault that applied the brake with no pressure on the pedal it would light the red ABS warning light instead and the car will read something along the lines of "Check Traction Control ABS and TC Disabled" on the odometer display.


Hope that clears things up a bit.
Quite a bit!

In my situation it behaved like ESC, but it also bogged down the engine, cutting fuel/spark whatever. I could give it a little throttle occasionally, but then it would swerve and cut throttle again as I tried to make my way to the highway shoulder.

Thanks for the incredible breakdown Convert!
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Originally Posted by 11Red3.7 View Post
My service advisor just now called and they can not duplicate it at all, have no codes, and Ford he says has no advice on how to proceed. Nervous as hell to drive this car home, or anywhere else...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Red3.7 View Post
Deysha contacted my regional customer service rep Steve who I've been in contact with twice. When I picked up the car I drove around for 10 minutes with the service manager. Nothing freaked out, and it shifted pretty well *sigh*...
It looks like disconnecting the battery may have erased any saved codes, 11Red3.7. Please continue to work with your CSM until all is resolved for you.

Deysha

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