When Is Ford Going To Step Up - Page 3 - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #31 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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I've worked for two asian major car manufactures for two decades as a technician.

The first being Honda where I spent 18 years when a problem repeatedly occurs they are all over it whether is a TSB or voluntary recall.It doesn't have to be a saftey issue before Honda gets involved.I've worked with field engineers to find unique problems and repair them.Honda engineers are second to none.Where do you think your variable valve timing came from?Jesus, the were producing 120hp per liter n/a back in 2000.



Secondly I worked for Lexus which we all know is Toyota which is the largest car manufacturer in the world.Toyota received a bad rap on unintended acceleration.Which turns out was the customers fault by stacking floor mats 3 or 4 high causing them to bunch up.

So this basically applied the accelerator pedal when the customer was applying the brake pedal.We (the technicians)updated the PCM so when brake and accelerator is applied at the same time it drops down to engine idle speed and we removed any non factory floor mats on the drivers side.I put them in the trunk even though is pissed the customer off.Now Lexus is no longer liable for the stacking the floor mats and causing unitended acceleration.

I've been verified at 178 in my car and the last thing in the back of my mind was my driveshaft.In the back of my mind it was the block.My car still felt like it was gaing speed and my buddy affirmed that.But my car is not set up for that speed it became to light and felt unsafe.


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I can see MCAs point, but from an engineering perspective it appears to me that the factor of safety of the stock drive shaft is a bit too close to 1.0. And, again from an engineering standpoint, the cost difference between it and the GT part has got to be minimal.

So once again, we have accountants making engineering decisions. If they can save $10 each on 100,000 cars, that's a million dollars, and that can make some bean-counter's career.

This is the same mistake that Ford made with the Pinto and the lesson has been forgotten.


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Originally Posted by geardriven View Post
Is Ford going to investigate or do anything about the V6 driveshaft failures?

They sell the performance upgrades Ford Racing 3.73/4.10 and so on that's increasing the driveshat RPM and causing the failure.
So excuse my confusion here. This thread started off with the above quote which linked DS failure rates to those imposing a load on that part by adding after market 'performance upgrades' for which the part was not designed. Specifically 3.73 / 4/.10 gearing.

The thread then morphed into a discussion about km/mph top speeds as being the issue:

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Originally Posted by MCA2011 View Post
But clearly from this ^ post you affirm that you are talking about about driving at racing speed, legally or not.

And if you ... are going to drive your car at excessive speed and beyond its design limits, then safety is YOUR responsibility.
As someone who's about to drop in 3.73 gears this weekend and aware that you need to be careful about any upgraded part's dependencies...should i be expecting to kill myself shortly or should i go buy a new DS? I have no intention on driving through town at 130mph and most of my time i'll be non-highway.

Plain English please, cheers.

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post #34 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MCA2011 View Post
The cause of the failure is not upgrading the gears, it is driving the car with upgraded gears at twice the speed limit.

You can't just slap on an aftermarket performance part (in this case gears) and push the car's limits without accepting that you might require other prerequisite upgrades

And my stated "5% of owners" is probably a gross exaggeration

Better engineered driveshafts are available. If you think Ford / Ford Racing should offer an aftermarket driveshaft, or even as a factory option, that makes perfect sense, but to put in a performance driveshaft as a stock part and bump the price of the V6 is a bad business move.
That's funny because in the Coyote 5.0's ,SN-95's and SN-93's you can.I've never seen a driveshaft break on me and I was double the factory HP and now I'm triple with an upgraded driveshaft for weight savings.

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post #35 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FoolnYa View Post
Im pretty sure American Muscle had a stocker shaft break on them while cruising down the highway. Granted, their car isnt stock (at all), but no 'abuse' was taking place at that particular moment.

And speaking of abuse...

2012 Mustang 3.7l v6- 1/8th mile racing against 3vs + others - YouTube

2012 Mustang 3.7l v6 1/4mile runs- [email protected] - YouTube

2012 Mustang 3.7 m6 v6 dyno-279whp 270wtq - YouTube

Those dyno pulls reached 142mph 3 times....

::::KNOCK ON WOOD:::: I guess Im a lucky one. Still planning on upgrading the shaft, eventually, but Im still a skeptic on whether its the shaft itself, or whatever's causing the vibration thats likely busting the shafts....
Correct me if I'm wrong didn't Central Florida Motorsports 3.7 spank American Muscle's time?I would think if there was a vibration elsewhere like the engine (which I know it's not) there would be failure there like main bearings.

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Originally Posted by geardriven View Post
That's funny because in the Coyote 5.0's ,SN-95's and SN-93's you can.I've never seen a driveshaft break on me and I was double the factory HP and now I'm triple with an upgraded driveshaft for weight savings.
Maybe (just maybe) that's because GTs are targeted at a more performance oriented crowd to begin with, so they beef it up a bit knowing the cars can and will be pushed harder.

FWIW, how many incidents of cylinder failure have there been in 2011-12 V6s?

Unless there are incidents of V6 driveshaft breakage under normal operating conditions that are anything more frequent than unfortunate isolated cases, I think Ford did its due diligence. As I said earlier, please direct me to a reliable and verifiable news story of Mustang driveshaft failures, and not an interwebz post.

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post #37 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuabroad View Post
So excuse my confusion here. This thread started off with the above quote which linked DS failure rates to those imposing a load on that part by adding after market 'performance upgrades' for which the part was not designed. Specifically 3.73 / 4/.10 gearing.

The thread then morphed into a discussion about km/mph top speeds as being the issue:



As someone who's about to drop in 3.73 gears this weekend and aware that you need to be careful about any upgraded part's dependencies...should i be expecting to kill myself shortly or should i go buy a new DS? I have no intention on driving through town at 130mph and most of my time i'll be non-highway.

Plain English please, cheers.
I started this thread okay,not to scare people.I would like Ford to acknowlege there is a problem with the 3.7 driveshaft.I was using 3.73 and 4.10 as an example.You are increasing the driveshafts rpm when you change to either of these gears.I would personally upgrade my driveshaft as my first mod that's just me.

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post #38 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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Central Florida Moorsports is doing a group buy on driveshafts right now.It's my understanding there is an aluminum and carbon fiber shaft with a cv joint at the rear.They are made by the Drive Shaft Shop.

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post #39 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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Well, I'll attempt my best @ diplomatically playing both sides. At first glance, from a logical engineering perspective, ford dropped the ball on the V6 shaft. A hollow shaft with the CV essentially in the middle, is going to get out of wack @ some RPM. Now what that RPM is and whether it is the owner's fault for exceeding the limitations is somewhat debatable, that's all I have to offer. I WILL be uprgrading my DS in the near future just for peace of mind. Is Ford expected to do anything really though? Why would they recall/change it? A large portion of V6 drivers report the apprehension of exceeding 115 , or tracking their car on a stock DS...please? AFAIK the stock DS is sufficient unless the you exceed the 115-120 mark......then an aftermarket option is on you.
But Ford Racing is offering the gears to exceed the driveshafts rpm's limits.All I ask is for Ford to be logical about this.They do offer a racing division right?I don't want any of my fellow Mustang enthuist to be injured.There's no amount of money that can justify a humans life.I've lost a few friends to racing both cars and motorcycles.

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post #40 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MCA2011 View Post
Maybe (just maybe) that's because GTs are targeted at a more performance oriented crowd to begin with, so they beef it up a bit knowing the cars can and will be pushed harder.

FWIW, how many incidents of cylinder failure have there been in 2011-12 V6s?

Unless there are incidents of V6 driveshaft breakage under normal operating conditions that are anything more frequent than unfortunate isolated cases, I think Ford did its due diligence. As I said earlier, please direct me to a reliable and verifiable news story of Mustang driveshaft failures, and not an interwebz post.
Well,Ford using the 8.8 rear end instead of the 7.5 they have always used in the V6 leads me to believe they were thinking about drive train upgrade at some point.

Anyway I look at it the driveshaft in the 3.7 is inferior.

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post #41 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012 Thread Starter
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Fine, let's close that gap. Is Ford liable for your head on crash injuries if you decide to play chicken at 40mph with your friend, who owns an F350?



You don't see a safety concern of being part of the .025% of the population who drives at 125mph?

I've touched 100 a couple of times, but I have no intention of driving at speeds that compromise the integrity of the driveshaft. Tell me why I should pay for your thrills and choice to take such risks.

You can spend on your car and upgrade your drivetrain if you wish, but don't expect me and every other V6 buyer absorb the costs for you.

There is nothing wrong with the driveshaft if used under intended loads.

Please tell me you're just a troll, and not as stupid as these ridiculous posts make you appear

Why do you think the 1993-1998 Supra Twin Turbo was such a great car?Because it was over engineered,no drive train problems it really was on the Lexus technology,it was their flagship vehicle.

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post #42 of 133 (permalink) Old 03-27-2012 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by V6 Cannonballer View Post
I'd taken my car to 130 several dozen times (or more) with the stock 2.73's and with the current 3.55's. I'd also been up to 140 with the 2.73's. I doubt I'll try 140 with the 3.55's. Even so, I understand the risks and I enjoy taking them. Foolish or not, it's who I am, and I intentionally seek the emptiest, most visible and flat stretches of road I can find.

That being said, I'm not trying to encourage anyone to do what I do and although I'd love to see the stock DS capable of a lot more, I am not going to expect Ford to beef up an economy car, 305 HP or not. There are aftermarket DS's and other parts available now that will take serious beatings. And one day I shall own said parts. Until then, I'm learning to curb my lead foot. My weak DS is not Ford's problem and so far it's been as burly as I've ever needed it.
This is a pony car. If you think it's an economy car you should be looking at the Fiesta ,Focus or Fit.

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Quote:
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Why do you think the 1993-1998 Supra Twin Turbo was such a great car?Because it was over engineered,no drive train problems it really was on the Lexus technology,it was their flagship vehicle.
We agree on this. The Supra was a great car. As was its main competitor the 300ZX of the same era. Perhaps 2 of the greatest everyday performance cars ever made.

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Ford chose to make the drive shaft how it is for a variety of reasons. From a performance standpoint it is not the best design, but nothing in this vehicle or any street vehicle is engineered from a performance standpoint only. You are complaining, if im correct, because of you installing aftermarket gears which ford sells, not specifically for this vehicle, the mustang v6, but any mustang, which could lead to a drive shaft failure at a speed that is extremely dangerous to travel at. At a drag strip down the 1/4 mile you will never see more than 130 MPH from this car, unless heavily modified, and if you do, you would be an idiot not to have upgraded the driveshaft. Ford chose the design based off fuel economy, price, performance, their parts suppliers, and many other details. To single out one aspect of this car, performance, and then to single out one specific drivetrain component, the drive shaft, and say that because of the choices ford made it is unsafe is asinine. If this car was a formula one car then it would be asinine. This is a mustang v6 with a 31 mpg highway rating sold to 16 year old girls- 99 year old racers. Their is a reason the speed limiter is in place. Their is a reason the car only comes with 3.31 gears from the factory and their is a reason that ford chose to use the shaft they did. For you to say that because Ford offers aftermarket performance gears it should include a performance driveshaft in the stock trim doesn't make much sense at all. I guess because they sell an aftermarket CAI they should just include that too? Or because they offer the ford racing supercharger for the 5.0 the engine should just be forged internally from the factory to prevent the bottom end from blowing? The answer is simple. This specific product is marketed to a specific audience. If you want all the performance parts from the factory on the vehicle you need to step up to a gt or a gt500 or a boss 302. Ford gives you many options

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Are you serious, gearhead?

Overengineered my ass, for the base price of what the base TT Supra cost in it's time, you could buy the 2013 GT500 for it's sticker price today. Not that you're going to find that any time soon. Being disatisfied with the drivetrain of a $20k sports car is sad, man. Ford doesn't have to admit ****, people should stop trying to nickel and dime for a quick ride only to complain when it's bumpy.


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