K&N Air filter made little to no difference. - Page 2 - Ford Mustang Forum
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Originally Posted by Dork Vader View Post
That said I did need a new air filter so I ordered the K&N air filter. I've had it on for a little under a month now and have seen no noticeable change in the average MPG.
From what I understand the pcm is always trying to keep fuel/air ratio at 14.? or whatever the fuel tables are set for. Would it not be reasonable to think if the air supply is restricted the fuel supply will then be reduced to accomplish the pcm's goal? Therefore fuel mileage would stay constant but overall power would be reduced. This should stay constant until the air filters restriction goes beyond the air flow sensors parameter which I might think will set a code.

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This is like what is the best oil? threads! Buy what you feel is best based on the data that is out there. The filters allow more air flow in CFM based on surface size not because they don't filter well.

Note since the Coyote 5.0 came out the Ford Racing performance packs at least stage 1 use a K&N drop-in and tune....they actually rebranded or put Ford Racing logo on the K&N box.

Looks like the new mult stage perf packs for 2015 up just came out with K&N drop in for stage 1, and GT350 CAI for upper stages...

I would not worry about any reputable brand allowing dirt in the engine. Anything that is small enough to pass through a filter is not going to damage the engine.

I've used Airaid and K&N on sports and family cars, hundreds of thousands of miles no issues.


Now: 2016 Mustang GT Fastback-Magnetic Metallic, Ford Racing Touring axle-backs, Ford Racing front strut and k-brace, K&N CAI, sound tube delete, 1975 Corvette Coupe-L48, 4-speed

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmr2000 View Post
This is like what is the best oil? threads! Buy what you feel is best based on the data that is out there. The filters allow more air flow in CFM based on surface size not because they don't filter well.
Well maybe not exactly. I did a dimensional analysis on the OEM vs. K&N filter and the K&N was found to have almost 4 times less surface area than the OEM (link below). The only way to make that filter flow as well as or more than the OEM is to open up the pore size therefore reducing it's filtering performance.

https://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...-analysis.html

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Originally Posted by mbrewer566 View Post
Logic would say the restriction is the throttle body diameter. Make it bigger, more air can flow (if the engine wants it). Paper woven filters capture more than the K&N. K&N has large enough pores to let in large particles that could damage the engine. Air can also be compressed (supercharger or turbo), so even with a smaller throttle body, if more air is desired it can be compressed or pushed harder.....all kind of defeats the whole argument. I'll stick with OEM.
Logic tells me that even if you had larger throttle body that the air would "crammed down" again once it was past the TB so the same amount of air is going into the intake manifold and heads as before, thus making the same amount of power. I've never seen anyone gain anything from a TB or a cai. The ones who gained performance with with a TB and cai plus tune, well the gain came from the tune, not the filter and TB.
I've had a few cars with k&n's and my wife's 07 expedition currently has one. I put it in without her knowing and she never felt a thing. I've even ran down the street with no air filter at all in my mustang and I couldn't tell a difference.
You can't make horsepower or improve gas mileage with a filter change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Grimaldi View Post
Yes. And remember, marketing is directing you toward buying a specific product. They really don't tell you how much of a gain you will get. 5hp maybe? You can't even feel that. I know that companies are here to make money but negligible HP gains is not worth the money. There is a golf tee marketed in the golf magazines that guarantees "up to" 5 extra yards! That means 0-5. So if you get 0 extra yards, their guarantee is good. People buy them. I can still hit it further than those guys with a regular wooden tee.

Pete
20 years ago k&n used to advertise a 25 horse gain with their filters. Now they just advertise that they are better for the environment.



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Not sure I can believe this dyno sheet attached but worse case got rid of about 5 pounds of plastic and that sound tube. Definitely seems like a much smoother path. I can say never had a K&N filter fall apart like some paper filters do.

Seems like to get max power out of a tune you need an aftermarket filter so must be CFM related.

Bottom line we all do what we are comfortable with.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 2016 5.0 GT K&N 63-2590_dyno.pdf (38.5 KB, 128 views)

Now: 2016 Mustang GT Fastback-Magnetic Metallic, Ford Racing Touring axle-backs, Ford Racing front strut and k-brace, K&N CAI, sound tube delete, 1975 Corvette Coupe-L48, 4-speed

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?? from all of that I would prolly save my money and leave the thing stock till I can afford some real power on additions.......just saying...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmr2000 View Post
Not sure I can believe this dyno sheet attached but worse case got rid of about 5 pounds of plastic and that sound tube. Definitely seems like a much smoother path. I can say never had a K&N filter fall apart like some paper filters do.

Seems like to get max power out of a tune you need an aftermarket filter so must be CFM related.

Bottom line we all do what we are comfortable with.

Really to see huge gains from a tune the air to fuel ratio needs to less than desirable prior to the tune. Say you added a blower and after the blower your baseline with the stock tune is only 50 more hp than stock. Well the tuner "adds more fuel" and now it gains and other 50 hp, so now it's has 100 more hp than stock. That's how mine went when i got it tuned after the blower.
I imagine the a/f ratio is still pretty close to stock after a cai so there wouldn't be that much room or need for adjustment in that department of tuning. I imagine the gains after a tune with the stock box and with a k&n would be similar since I bet the main thing they're adjusting is the timing.


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Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
Really to see huge gains from a tune the air to fuel ratio needs to less than desirable prior to the tune. Say you added a blower and after the blower your baseline with the stock tune is only 50 more hp than stock. Well the tuner "adds more fuel" and now it gains and other 50 hp, so now it's has 100 more hp than stock. That's how mine went when i got it tuned after the blower.
I imagine the a/f ratio is still pretty close to stock after a cai so there wouldn't be that much room or need for adjustment in that department of tuning. I imagine the gains after a tune with the stock box and with a k&n would be similar since I bet the main thing they're adjusting is the timing.


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Let's talk about a relatively stock/oem engine.....The OEM software system is designed to adjust the fuelmixture up to 10% (25% on the 2000+ mod engines).......that’s more than enoughto handle fuel mixture adjustments up to 7,000 foot elevation change! (for high elevations 8,000+ there are oemsoftware programs for those specific applications).


Ok, let's just take a look at basic physics.....


The2013 Mustang 5.0 V8 (N/A), for example if close to stock (assuming 6,800 max rpm& 90% volumetric efficiency- note that is race car spec and likely higherthan reality) can only suck in a maximum of 535 CFM, and the OEM flat panel filter ( 12.375” x 9.675”) will flow 718cfm,


....so how can just a CAI force more air into an engine thatis already injesting everything it can? It can't plan & simple- basic lawsof physics without a forced induction system......I know...science and real data by an ISO certified testfacility.


The formula which is used by every air filter manufacturerin the world to determine the CFM for flat panel filters is...


Flat Panel CM= Length x Width x 6


So, take you relatively stock engine, calc the max CFM basedupon mfg specs; calc the max CFM the oem filter will flow....now show me howsticking a filter that will flow 900 CFM will increase the performance of anengine that can only suck in a max of 700 cfm and has an oem filter that willflow 700+? bad math, no science...all PR materials for the sticker hpcrowd!


IMHo of course........
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"The2013 Mustang 5.0 V8 (N/A), for example if close to stock (assuming 6,800 max rpm& 90% volumetric efficiency- note that is race car spec and likely higherthan reality) can only suck in a maximum of 535 CFM"

How does the mfg calc the CFM? Not sure why there is a 535 CFM limitation?

If you can get more air in and more air out....

Thanks.

Now: 2016 Mustang GT Fastback-Magnetic Metallic, Ford Racing Touring axle-backs, Ford Racing front strut and k-brace, K&N CAI, sound tube delete, 1975 Corvette Coupe-L48, 4-speed

Past Lives: 2001 Corvette Z51 Coupe, 2012 Mustang Grabber Blue Coupe, 2008 Mustang Torch Red Vert, 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, 1985 Nissan 300ZX, 1979 Mazda RX-7, 1971 Datsun 240Z, 1972 Fiat 124 Vert, 1971 Chevelle, 1970 Challenger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmr2000 View Post
"The2013 Mustang 5.0 V8 (N/A), for example if close to stock (assuming 6,800 max rpm& 90% volumetric efficiency- note that is race car spec and likely higherthan reality) can only suck in a maximum of 535 CFM"

How does the mfg calc the CFM? Not sure why there is a 535 CFM limitation?

If you can get more air in and more air out....

Thanks.
because it is the maximum volume that the cylinder can be filled with...................................just like an 8 ounce glass.....you can't stick 10 ounces in it without "compressing" the substance to fit in an 8 ounce container.....that's what blowers, turbo's do. Here's a generic CFM online calculator


https://www.summitracing.com/experta...cfm-calculator


and the actual formula for calculating it yourself.....


http://starperformanceproducts.com/C...FM-Formula.htm

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The airflow path also matters...if the stock paper element can flow 700 cfm does not mean it is 100% efficient with those 2 bends, if it is 70% then less than 500cfm or so that the engine can handle.

Those calculator links are for carb engines, does anyone have one for FI?

Airaid and K&N along with mags, shows must all be conspiring when they dyno before and after and show air filter and tune are a bigger increase than tune alone...
Including Ford themselves since they use high flow filters on all the Ford Racing performance packs.

Not saying anything groundbreaking is achieved but there is something there better than stock.

Now: 2016 Mustang GT Fastback-Magnetic Metallic, Ford Racing Touring axle-backs, Ford Racing front strut and k-brace, K&N CAI, sound tube delete, 1975 Corvette Coupe-L48, 4-speed

Past Lives: 2001 Corvette Z51 Coupe, 2012 Mustang Grabber Blue Coupe, 2008 Mustang Torch Red Vert, 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, 1985 Nissan 300ZX, 1979 Mazda RX-7, 1971 Datsun 240Z, 1972 Fiat 124 Vert, 1971 Chevelle, 1970 Challenger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmr2000 View Post
The airflow path also matters...if the stock paper element can flow 700 cfm does not mean it is 100% efficient with those 2 bends, if it is 70% then less than 500cfm or so that the engine can handle.

Those calculator links are for carb engines, does anyone have one for FI?

Airaid and K&N along with mags, shows must all be conspiring when they dyno before and after and show air filter and tune are a bigger increase than tune alone...
Including Ford themselves since they use high flow filters on all the Ford Racing performance packs.

Not saying anything groundbreaking is achieved but there is something there better than stock.
With regards to the "this is for carbed engines"........it's the same formula..........this is basic science, call holley tech who builds both Carburators and EFI units...


Those "bends".......there is also a formula for calculating that too.......the tube itself will flow almost 1000 cfm, and no, those bends have no effect.


Airaid and K&N along with mags, shows must all be conspiring when they dyno before and after and show air filter and tune are a bigger increase than tune alone...

If you look at the flow data, WIXHP filters flow 98+% of K&N and have a much smoother flow post filter plusexcellent filtering, for a fraction of the price!

Testand Corporation conducted anISO standards test on automotive air filters which can be viewed at this link: http://www.dieselbombers.com/chevrolet-diesel-tech-articles/16611-duramax-air-filter-testing.html.

“After only 24 minutes the K&Nhad accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, theK&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt andcaptured 37% less dirt.”

All I can say is this explains in detail thereason for (Arlen) SPICER (a well known industry leader) wrote,

“Now that I am not doing the tests and my objectivity is not necessary, letme explain my motivation. The reason I started this crusade was that I wasseeing people spend a lot of money on aftermarket filters based on the word ofa salesperson or based on the misleading, incomplete or outright deceiving information printed on boxes and in sales literature.

If you were a filter manufacturer and youbelieved your filter could filter dirt better than any other media on themarket, wouldn't you want to prove it? Guess what. Test your filter vs. the OEpaper. It will cost you $3000 and for that price you will have the data thatyou can use in your advertisements. Your investment will be returned a thousandfold! EASIER than shooting fish in a barrel! So why don't these manufacturersdo this? Hmmm?

Now I am not saying that ALL aftermarket filters are useless. A paper filterdoes not do well if directly wetted or muddy. It may collapse. This is why manyoff-road filters are foam. It is a compromise between filtering efficiency andprotection from a collapsed filter. Now how many of our trucks collapse theirfilters from mud and water? However, if a filter is using "betterairflow" as their marketing tool, remember this....Does it flow better? The stock filter will flow MORETHAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give. And thisremains true until the filter is dirty enough to trip the air filter lifeindicator. At that point performance will decline somewhat. Replace the filterand get on with it.

and if everything else doen't bring the truth to bear, In 2012 on jay Leno’s garage, when inquired, Fords Mustang Chief Engineer DavePericak specifically stated that the use of an aftermarket CAI will donothing to gain any power.



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K&N Air filter made little to no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmr2000 View Post
The airflow path also matters...if the stock paper element can flow 700 cfm does not mean it is 100% efficient with those 2 bends, if it is 70% then less than 500cfm or so that the engine can handle.

Those calculator links are for carb engines, does anyone have one for FI?

Airaid and K&N along with mags, shows must all be conspiring when they dyno before and after and show air filter and tune are a bigger increase than tune alone...
Including Ford themselves since they use high flow filters on all the Ford Racing performance packs.

Not saying anything groundbreaking is achieved but there is something there better than stock.


I'm no scientist but here's how I look at an engine. I picture it as funnel, the big part is where the air filter is and the small part is the cylinder heads. If you made the bigger part of the funnel bigger so it can hold more liquid but you didn't make the narrower part of the funnel any bigger it's not going to drain the liquid any faster. I look at air going into the engine the same way. Even if the filter actually does let more into the hose that's hooked to the TB, by the time it gets thorough the intake manifold and into the heads it's the same amount of air going in prior to having a less restrictive filter.
Yes the performance aftermarket is running amok with false claims, manipulated gains, and borderline scams.


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Only way to know for certain is testing specifically on car in question, there will always be variations.

I've seen local shop dyno sheet before and after multiple steps of tuning with positive results to plenty of aftermarket parts including CAI's.

Good discussion, have seen the diesel site link from 2008 and Leno clip for the BOSS 302 previously, thanks.

Now: 2016 Mustang GT Fastback-Magnetic Metallic, Ford Racing Touring axle-backs, Ford Racing front strut and k-brace, K&N CAI, sound tube delete, 1975 Corvette Coupe-L48, 4-speed

Past Lives: 2001 Corvette Z51 Coupe, 2012 Mustang Grabber Blue Coupe, 2008 Mustang Torch Red Vert, 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, 1985 Nissan 300ZX, 1979 Mazda RX-7, 1971 Datsun 240Z, 1972 Fiat 124 Vert, 1971 Chevelle, 1970 Challenger
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personally like the air noise but that's about it.

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