Short Shifters - Page 2 - Ford Mustang Forum
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Originally Posted by willyg1997 View Post
The stock aluminum shift forks are weak (to say the least), and your new short thro shifter with the positive stops will help minumize the stress put on your forks by over shifting with your stock shifter.
I find it interesting that the PRO-5.0 people created this need for positive stops on their shifters to "protect" the forks and prevent over-shifting to sell more shifters and everyone believes it to the point it is all over the internet and on every forum everywhere!

If one tears down a T-5, T-45, or a TR3650 they will find a positive stop already in the transmission... The shift rail can only travel so far!

Mis-adjusted aftermarket stops have damaged a lot of transmissions by not allowing them to fully engage the gears.


Now, aftermarket shifters are great! They have a much better feel and they help you to not miss that 2-3 shift at the strip!

So, DO get an aftermarket shifter, but my recommendation is to throw the stop bolts away! They do nothing but cause trouble!


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MGW is the way to go. I agree throw away the stops, you do not need them.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPeace-ATL View Post
I find it interesting that the PRO-5.0 people created this need for positive stops on their shifters to "protect" the forks and prevent over-shifting to sell more shifters and everyone believes it to the point it is all over the internet and on every forum everywhere!

If one tears down a T-5, T-45, or a TR3650 they will find a positive stop already in the transmission... The shift rail can only travel so far!

Mis-adjusted aftermarket stops have damaged a lot of transmissions by not allowing them to fully engage the gears.


Now, aftermarket shifters are great! They have a much better feel and they help you to not miss that 2-3 shift at the strip!

So, DO get an aftermarket shifter, but my recommendation is to throw the stop bolts away! They do nothing but cause trouble!
If you remove the stops, how do you avoid bending the shift forks? Bent shift forks are a pretty common problem, according to the transmission builders and racers I've heard from.


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Quote:
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If you remove the stops, how do you avoid bending the shift forks? Bent shift forks are a pretty common problem, according to the transmission builders and racers I've heard from.
That is what we read on the websites. You would think it would be true...

Out of the kazillion T-5s, T-45, and TR3650s I've torn down, I can't say that I've EVER seen a bent fork...

They BREAK because they are brittle.
The pads melt down and the tabs wear off.
Sometimes they just crack.
Sometimes the linkage snaps.
Sometimes a roll-pin breaks, or comes out.

The movement of the shifter is limited by a built-in stop inside the transmission. Having an external stop only acts as a backup stop.
The installation instructions for aftermarket shifters say to adjust the stop so that it just barely NEVER hits. The internal stops are very solid and don't have a habit of failing. Tremec says if you have an aftermarket shifter, to adjust the stops way out of the way or remove them so that they can't interfere with the normal operation of the transmission.

When shifting a gear there is never anything firm that the fork actually hits because the linkage is designed to not allow that much movement. The fork slides a slider ring over a ring of teeth on the edge of the gear being selected. Each synchro hub has 3 "keys" with springs under them that press into detents in the inside of the slider. The tips of these keys are engaged in notches in the synchro ring.

Generally, when a fork breaks, these keys have become dislodged and have jammed, locking that slider so it can't move. At that point, the fork is now trying to move something it can't and it may break. Sometimes the driver is able to force the slider enough to shear off the part of the key that has become jammed and it will shift again. Unfortunately, with a sheared key, the synchro can no longer operate properly.

With a T-5 open on a workbench it is easy to replicate this by sliding the 3-4 slider as far as it will go. The keys will dislodge and jam right before your eyes. The reality is that had the forks and top cover been in place, the factory shifter stops would have prevented the slider from moving that far! I believe that someone observed this while trying to figure out why they keys jam and break and came up with the aftermarket shifter stops as a solution, but the reality is that it doesn't work...

It is my opinion that the main reason the keys pop out is once the bearings get some wear on them, there is slack in the main shaft and input shaft allowing too large of a gap between the synchro hub and the synchro rings. The rings move away from the hub, and even though the fork and slider never moved too far, the ends of the keys pop up and disengage from their notches in the rings. The ring can then rotate and the key has no place to go (no available notch) when the slider tries to return to its normal position. Now it is jammed! Had the bearings not been worn, and the endplay still set to the proper adjustment, this could not have happened.

The Billet Keys for third and fourth are shaped a little differently from the originals and don't seem to be able to pop up so easily and thus, upgrading to the billet keys is a worthy upgrade.

Keep your transmission's input shaft properly shimmed and you shouldn't have trouble with forks and keys!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPeace-ATL View Post
I find it interesting that the PRO-5.0 people created this need for positive stops on their shifters to "protect" the forks and prevent over-shifting to sell more shifters and everyone believes it to the point it is all over the internet and on every forum everywhere!

If one tears down a T-5, T-45, or a TR3650 they will find a positive stop already in the transmission... The shift rail can only travel so far!

Mis-adjusted aftermarket stops have damaged a lot of transmissions by not allowing them to fully engage the gears.


Now, aftermarket shifters are great! They have a much better feel and they help you to not miss that 2-3 shift at the strip!

So, DO get an aftermarket shifter, but my recommendation is to throw the stop bolts away! They do nothing but cause trouble!

Ok, my reply was what my trany builder told me, so i just passed it on, wight or wrong.

If this is the case you need to expand on the fit-form-function of the internal stop to the group to help give us a better understanding on how the internal stop actully work and why we should toss the stop bolts.

When i pulled mine apart i noticed an "L" shape bracket conectiin the upper and lower rails, is this the internal stop?

Can the internal stop wear enough to cause any over shifting?

How/why are we breaking shift forks?

Are they weak, and is there an stronger aftermarket fork that can be installed?

When shifting with the stock shifter after it engages into gear why is there so much more travel on the shifter? where is it going?

For me i like the positive stop bolts to help the fealing of hitting the gear.

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SPeace-ALT, lookks like you hit the send before i did. so disreguard my prev post. thx

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DB-Performance Tune: 634rwhp @ 6000rpm , 609rwtq @ 4000rpm, (500rwtq @ 2500rpm)

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What is your opinion of these? Tremec Billet 3-4 shift fork - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

I don't think anyone would question that Bruce Hemminger is arguably the most experienced tranny tester/abuser/destroyer/replacer...


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The stock shifters are mushy mostly because they have a rubber joint between the handle and the shifter base. The aftermarket shifters have stronger springs in the bases to help center the shifter in a quick 2-3 shift.

The internal stops work differently in the different models.

The T-5, T-45 and T-56 use a "finger" under the shift anvil that navigates in an "H" pattern guide under the shifter base. In the T-56 it is a bit further forward under that square plate on top. This finger is the stop and limits the travel of the shifter.

On the TR3650 there are two hard, plastic washers on the rear most shift rail. One is visible in the shifter cavity that limits travel of the rail towards the rear, and the other one is inside the tail housing that limits travel towards the front.

Yes, the forks are brittle and weak. Some of the forks have been redesigned by Tremec to be stronger. Others are available as aftermarket products.

Remember that the proper adjustment of the stop bolts is that they do not touch the shifter handle. This is writtin in the instructions packaged with the shifters. Therefore, they only offer peace of mind and psychological support... True, if the internal stop wore down, or somehow failed, the external stop would help, but the internals don't have a habit of failing...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharad View Post
I've not seen that particular fork, but if one is "Slamming" gears, a billet steel fork will be much better than a brittle aluminum one.

The T-45 3-4 fork is the most notorious one to break.
The original style TR3650 1-2 fork likes to break, but Tremec has redesigned it. The T-56 Aluminum 3-4 fork likes to break, but again, Tremec has redesigned it and replaced it with a steel fork.

I haven't come across any T-5 billet forks, but the newer Tremec forks seem to be made a bit thicker.

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This is a real good write-up/information. It has helped me. It might be helpful to start a new FYI thread on Tremec Shifting Strengths/Weaknesses.

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