Bank 1 Sensor 2 question? - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019 Thread Starter
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Question Bank 1 Sensor 2 question?

I have a question about banks (and sensors) on the Ford Mustang GT 2003 4.6L

I learnt that bank 1 is the side of the car where the number #1 cylinder is located - True | False?
I learnt that cylinder #1 is the cylinder closest to the front of the car - True | False?

So assuming this is true for both, which I thought it was, Bank 1 Sensor 2 would be drivers side rear, however, when looking on Google, people are saying Bank 1 Sensor 2 is passenger side rear. Why is this?

Secondly, when replacing O2 sensors on a Ford Mustang GT 2003 4.6L, are all 4 interchangeable as far as their function? (I dont care about physical attributes such as cable length etc). Or does it depend on the brand?

Thanks

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019
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Passenger side is #1,2,3,4 from front of car to rear. Driver side is #5,6,7,8.

Bank one sensor two would be passenger side, rear sensor.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019
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Warrior is correct on the nomenclature. The sensors are the same as far as fitting and "basic" function. However, some sensors have a built-in heater and therefore have different internal wiring and plug. And I believe the heated sensors are more expensive than the non-heated ones.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lwarrior1016 View Post
Passenger side is #1,2,3,4 from front of car to rear. Driver side is #5,6,7,8.

Bank one sensor two would be passenger side, rear sensor.
Thanks for the input, but these are the answers I have googled previously, but what spurred my post was my understanding of this. I don't really want a 'it's like this, so do this' kind of reply... I want to understand and learn from this.

Can you please read my OP and help address the logic in it?

EricTheCarGuy, for example, states the #1 cylinder is furthest forward, which on this engine, would put bank 1 on drivers side. I have read other websites which also state that the #1 cylinder is furthest forward, again, on this car, putting it in drivers side.

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Originally Posted by Travis98146 View Post
Warrior is correct on the nomenclature. The sensors are the same as far as fitting and "basic" function. However, some sensors have a built-in heater and therefore have different internal wiring and plug. And I believe the heated sensors are more expensive than the non-heated ones.
Thanks for replying about the second part of my message Travis98146!
Putting all materials, physical attributes and addition features aside (such as heating), as far as OBD engine codes go, would the computer throw an error (or would an error continue to show) if I place an upstream sensor in the downsteam port? or would this depend on brand? I.e. would the data sent to the computer be the same?
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s34nUSA View Post
Putting all materials, physical attributes and addition features aside (such as heating), as far as OBD engine codes go, would the computer throw an error (or would an error continue to show) if I place an upstream sensor in the downsteam port? or would this depend on brand? I.e. would the data sent to the computer be the same?
The answer to your question is a resounding "it depends".

For example IF an "application" uses a wide band O2 sensor in the front O2 sensor and a narrow band O2 in after cats THEN swapping the O2 sensors would most certainly cause a problem.

In the same vein putting an O2 sensor without a heater in an application that originally came with a heater, one should EXPECT problems.

There are TONS of real world examples where a narrow band O2 sensor is put into an application calling for a wide band O2 sensor NOT throwing a DTC codes.

My take. It's not a good idea to PLAN on any one specific PCM being smart enough to throw a DTC when the owner uses an incompatible parts.

If I were in your shoes here is what I would do. Go to RockAuto and look up the part in question for YOUR model year (the application). Pay attention to the 3rd party parts (for example Bosch). Does it call out the SAME part number for the front O2 sensors as it does the rears? If so, IMO it's a reasonable conclusion that the O2 sensors can interchange front to rear.

Note, this does not apply to the OEM's. Why? Because the OEM's use connectors with different key ways to prevent interchange (or have different color connectors). Whereas the the 3rd party Bosch units have the keys removed to allow interchange.

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s34nUSA View Post
EricTheCarGuy, for example, states the #1 cylinder is furthest forward, which on this engine, would put bank 1 on drivers side. I have read other websites which also state that the #1 cylinder is furthest forward, again, on this car, putting it in drivers side.
I don't know what kind of engine Eric was referring to, but it's important to note that cylinder numbering is not consistent across all cars/brands. Our Fords have cylinders 1,2,3,4 on the right/passenger side, while a GM product might have cylinders 1,3,5,7 on the left/driver's side.

If you look up firing order diagrams, you're going to see a simplified version where both banks of cylinders are lined up evenly. But in reality, the cylinders are offset, and one bank of cylinders will be a little further forward than the other. Whichever side that may be, whether your looking at a Ford, GM, or whatever, the forward-most cylinder is still #1. If you run an image search for Ford 4.6 engine blocks, you'll see that the forward-most cylinder is on the engine's right-hand side (which will end up being the passenger side, once mounted in the traditional longitudinal orientation, as is the case in our Mustangs).

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmburns View Post
The answer to your question is a resounding "it depends".

For example IF an "application" uses a wide band O2 sensor in the front O2 sensor and a narrow band O2 in after cats THEN swapping the O2 sensors would most certainly cause a problem.

In the same vein putting an O2 sensor without a heater in an application that originally came with a heater, one should EXPECT problems.

There are TONS of real world examples where a narrow band O2 sensor is put into an application calling for a wide band O2 sensor NOT throwing a DTC codes.

My take. It's not a good idea to PLAN on any one specific PCM being smart enough to throw a DTC when the owner uses an incompatible parts.

If I were in your shoes here is what I would do. Go to RockAuto and look up the part in question for YOUR model year (the application). Pay attention to the 3rd party parts (for example Bosch). Does it call out the SAME part number for the front O2 sensors as it does the rears? If so, IMO it's a reasonable conclusion that the O2 sensors can interchange front to rear.

Note, this does not apply to the OEM's. Why? Because the OEM's use connectors with different key ways to prevent interchange (or have different color connectors). Whereas the the 3rd party Bosch units have the keys removed to allow interchange.
Thank you for that detailed explanation and the link to RockAuto... I will use that website in future for part referencing, it looks pretty good! The part numbers are indeed different for Bosch, Denso and NTK, but I have read that they may just have different part numbers just because the length of the wire is shorter (or longer), so I suppose there is just no real way of knowing. I had a spare upstream sensor and my car calls for a replacement downstream, so this is my predicament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urambo Tauro View Post
I don't know what kind of engine Eric was referring to, but it's important to note that cylinder numbering is not consistent across all cars/brands. Our Fords have cylinders 1,2,3,4 on the right/passenger side, while a GM product might have cylinders 1,3,5,7 on the left/driver's side.

If you look up firing order diagrams, you're going to see a simplified version where both banks of cylinders are lined up evenly. But in reality, the cylinders are offset, and one bank of cylinders will be a little further forward than the other. Whichever side that may be, whether your looking at a Ford, GM, or whatever, the forward-most cylinder is still #1. If you run an image search for Ford 4.6 engine blocks, you'll see that the forward-most cylinder is on the engine's right-hand side (which will end up being the passenger side, once mounted in the traditional longitudinal orientation, as is the case in our Mustangs).
I took a look at the firing diagrams, I see that #1 cylinder is on the passenger side for my car. However, the drivers side is the side with the cylinder which is furthest forward, so that would make the drivers side having cylinder #1. So I think im even more confused now than I began originally
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019
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I would like to see this. What you're describing sounds like it was LS-swapped or something.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2019 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Urambo Tauro View Post
I would like to see this. What you're describing sounds like it was LS-swapped or something.
I changed the coils, they are yellow now, so you can see the #1 cylinder is furthest forward, but on the drivers side.
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That's a Mod motor alright. I still don't see any indication of it being a backwards/mirrored block though. It's hard to show you the actual cylinder locations from here, but FWIW the intake runners would probably be your best point of reference. I don't know how else to prove it to you without having you start taking things apart.

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Originally Posted by s34nUSA View Post
I changed the coils, they are yellow now, so you can see the #1 cylinder is furthest forward, but on the drivers side.
Have you re-wired the motor or just changed the color of the COP? Or perhaps someone just wrote a #1 on the COP itself.

What are the wire colors to YOUR #1 Cylinder (#5 to the rest of the Ford world) COP and fuel injector?

I'm skeptical and suspect that IF you were to disconnect the fuel injector it would throw a P0305 DTC code thus indicating that the PCM "thinks" it's #5.

Remember that Ford number's it's cylinders differently from a GM. Further that right and left is from the car's point of view (not your point of view facing the motor).

The rest of us have RD and TN wires for the #1 fuel injector and RD and LG/WH for the #1 COP which is front right (passenger's side from the car's point of view).

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I guess your bottom line here is a Vegas gamble. Since the code is for sensor 2, it points to a rearmost sensor. You can replace the one you believe is the defective one with your spare sensor, clear the code and see if everything is correct. If the original code comes up, you picked the wrong side. If a different code (or 2 codes come up), you picked the wrong side and your replacement won't work in the rearmost position. Now you get to put the original sensor back where it came from, buy the correct sensor and put it into the other side. Or you can test your system by disconnecting the sensor wire for what you believe would be bank 2 sensor 2, run the car and see if you now get multiple codes. Or a last option: buy 2 rearmost sensors and replace both of them (problem solved).
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It looks like the #1 cylinder is ahead of the #5.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-12-2019 Thread Starter
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Thank you for the input. I caved and ordered one downstream sensor, I really hate over-ordering and throwing parts at things, it drives me crazy especially when I do not understand how or why lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmburns View Post
Have you re-wired the motor or just changed the color of the COP? Or perhaps someone just wrote a #1 on the COP itself.

What are the wire colors to YOUR #1 Cylinder (#5 to the rest of the Ford world) COP and fuel injector?

I'm skeptical and suspect that IF you were to disconnect the fuel injector it would throw a P0305 DTC code thus indicating that the PCM "thinks" it's #5.

Remember that Ford number's it's cylinders differently from a GM. Further that right and left is from the car's point of view (not your point of view facing the motor).

The rest of us have RD and TN wires for the #1 fuel injector and RD and LG/WH for the #1 COP which is front right (passenger's side from the car's point of view).
I haven't re-wired anything, but I did get the car with 120K miles on it, I'm not sure what the previous owner did to it. They certainly didn't mention anything major.

I changed the COP, all 8 of them. They are just yellow, that is just their color when I bought them.

The two wire colors of the cylinder which is furthest forward on the drivers side is red and tan (See attached picture).
The two wire colors of the cylinder which is furthest forward on the passenger side is red and tan also
The two wire colors of the cylinder which is furthest backward on the passenger side is red and tan also
The other wires for most of the other cylinders seem to be red and red
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-14-2019 Thread Starter
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I'm not really sure what is going on here, but I google Image searched "ford mustang gt 2003 under the hood" and the layout looks exactly like mine (apart from the custom intake).

So either:
All of those cars are modified too, which is unlikely
or
The #1 cylinder is indeed on the drivers side

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