2003 Mach 1 Mustang intermittent valve chatter - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2009 Thread Starter
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2003 Mach 1 Mustang intermittent valve chatter

I have a 2003 Mach 1 Mustang. I do not have a chip and never have, I am not the original owner though. I am running 93 Oct fuel always, synthetic oil, maintanied regularly, well cared for engine. The car is relatively stock but I am having this really annoying issue with the car. I can drive the car for a long time with no issues.
The problem I am having is when I decide to jump down on the car for fun the valves chatter like a demon. As soon as I notice this I back off, I don't want to snap a valve. This only happens after I drive the car for a long time normal then decide to have a little fun. I do like to get on the car at least once a week to keep the carbon down. The wierd part is once I get on the car again in a short time, the valves are fine. It is like the computer does not realize I want performance, then it realizes that I am driving more aggresvily and adjust.
If I progressively start to accellerate harder and harder the computer seems to adjust fine and no chatter. Is it possible the computer is having issues? Do I need a tune? I do not have any codes coming up. Does anyone know what this is caused by?


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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2009
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Are you sure it's the valves, maybe clutch chattered?


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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2009
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I have an 04GT it does the same thing.You are right in thinking that the computer is learning because if I ma not mistaken that is what it does.It adjust to your driving habbits.The only thing I know of other wise is the dreaded "head tick" but I feel that is not what you have.It is a factory issue with the 32v engines.Or more to the point the heads.It had something to do with the colant passage not being right and not cooling the heads right wich inturn caused the valve seats to become dammaged some how and made the engine costantly make a "ticking" sound.As far as a tune mine has the diablo 93 tune and it still on rear moments rattles.Basically it is spark knock wich is caused by the computer adjusting the timming so when you are just driving easy it is turned back and when you drive hard it is advancing more it just takes a few sconds for the computer to relearn what is going on.Look up bullit5339 he can help explian better. Hope that helps some.Tell him 2004clean gt sent you.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2009
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Mach 1's are run on the lean side of safe from the factory to begin with. If the O2 sensors need to be replaced, or the MAF is dirty, it could throw off the air fuel reading enough to where you experience slight detonation at Tip In.

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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2009
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Man does that mean I was way way off base bullitt, and wonder why mine does it every once in a blue moon?:kooky:
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2009
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Nah, the head tick is a common problem in Machs and Cobras, but like you said, it doesn't sound like that's the problem.

It's not uncommon that when you're running aggressive timing and fuel curves to get detonation for a split second at Tip In. To oversimplify things, it's when you get on the car hard, the timing advances, but the fuel isn't there yet, so it goes lean for a split second, and you get some detonation. Mine used to do it slightly when stock, got worse with the SCT canned tune, but doesn't do it at all with the VMP tune.

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-14-2009
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O O.K. That sounds like what I was thinking but you just made it so simple and easy to understand.I think that is what I was trying to say.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2009 Thread Starter
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Bullitt5339,
Thank everyone for their insite. I do not think it is a head issue. You all seem to hit it right on the head with the learning curve for the computer. What is a VMP tune?
It may be cluch chatter simply because I cannot be for sure it is the valves, but it really sounds like it. I had someone follow me in fall and I jumped down on her, a large poof of black (not blue) smoke came out (carbon) other than that she chattered for a second or 2 then was fine. I went from 60-110 in no time and after that I could not get it to chatter again.
It seems to behave very differently at times. I will check the MAF sensor, I know there is a TID on how to clean it, very carefully.
I do not think it is a O2 issue, I hope not at 4 X 150.00
I did have one issue that turned out to be a defective PCV valve, that was 50.00 but the computer never kicked a code.
The only other issue is my K&N needs to be recharged bad, it is dirty as hell.
The only mods I have is an exhaust (cat back) and cold air intake. I am saving for the BBK shorty headers. By the way the car only has 39,973 miles on it. Thank you all for the advice.

Ahren

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2009
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Well the cars also have "knock sensors", so they can take a split second to function as well...I'm with you in that if you stomp it for a quick blast the cars seems to runner better afterwards...I have a chip and custom tune btw...
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the black smoke usually signifies that it is running rich (the opposite of lean). o2 sensors aren;t that expensive. if i remember correctly my ford stealership quoted me about $30 for each one. if i were you i would do those headers and recharge that intake and then get her down to a dyno to have it custom tuned. that should clear up the problem.

oh and i would stay away from BBK headers. they are of poor construction (GENERALLY SPEAKING) and tend to just have kinks and crimps to get around the k member. if i were you i would get some long tubes and a shorty mid pipe. exhaust mods work really well with those 4v motors.

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Most of the info already given is pretty good, though I don't quiet agree with the learning curve of the computer, while it does have a learning curve, its not an instant to instant thing, its spread over time, and shouldn't affect the WOT settings so quickly that it would ping. 2 questions... what brand and weight oil are you running, if you are running heavier than 5w20 it could be a problem, the oiling holes are pretty small up top and need the right oil. My other question is when was the fuel filter changed last? This could also cause the problem. Beyond that I would also look at the previously mentioned air filter, MAF and O2 sensors, and pull the plugs, if possible, shut it down immediately after it makes the noise, coast to a stop, and pull the plugs then, they may show a lean condition. It doesn't sound to me like a valve gear problem, but don't rule it out, especially if you're running heavier oil.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahren View Post
Bullitt5339,
Thank everyone for their insite. I do not think it is a head issue. You all seem to hit it right on the head with the learning curve for the computer. What is a VMP tune?
It may be cluch chatter simply because I cannot be for sure it is the valves, but it really sounds like it. I had someone follow me in fall and I jumped down on her, a large poof of black (not blue) smoke came out (carbon) other than that she chattered for a second or 2 then was fine. I went from 60-110 in no time and after that I could not get it to chatter again.
It seems to behave very differently at times. I will check the MAF sensor, I know there is a TID on how to clean it, very carefully.
I do not think it is a O2 issue, I hope not at 4 X 150.00
I did have one issue that turned out to be a defective PCV valve, that was 50.00 but the computer never kicked a code.
The only other issue is my K&N needs to be recharged bad, it is dirty as hell.
The only mods I have is an exhaust (cat back) and cold air intake. I am saving for the BBK shorty headers. By the way the car only has 39,973 miles on it. Thank you all for the advice.

Ahren
It's not a learning curve for the computer. The problem is that by either a mechanical (fuel filter, air filter, MAF, etc) or a tuning problem that is not supplying enough fuel at the split second where the timing advances when you go full throttle. The EEC operates on 2 different tables for normal driving and wide open throttle operations. Only the normal driving side of the EEC "learns", and it's done over a long period of time. The WOT side is programmed in, and remains more constant. You are having a problem when it switches from the "normal" to the "WOT" side of the house.

For the EEC educated, I know I'm simplifying things, and there's more involved than just this.

I would start out by checking all the normal maintenance stuff, plugs, filters, MAF, etc. and if nothing changes, put your car on a dyno with a wideband. It shouldn't cost more than $60 to just make a couple runs on the dyno, and tell them what you're looking for. It would be very beneficial to be able to datalog at the same time. What you would be looking for, and what a good tuner would look for is the timing vs. air fuel ratio at the point to where you floor the gas to see what it's doing. Anything the car isn't doing correctly will be apparent at that point on the datalog and dyno-graph with the A/F ration on it.

Then if the mechanical side of the house is good to go, a tuner can adjust the parameters in the tune to make sure that the a/f ratio stays acceptable during tip in.

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 12-16-2009 Thread Starter
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I am running full synthetic 5w20. The fuel filter was just replaced this summer. Because it is not a constant issue this is the dilema. Thank you all for the advice. It sounds like the most logical thing at this point is a dyno.
How difficult is it to replce the spark plugs and which kind should I use? I was commuting in the car this summer and drive for extended periods witout getting on the car. I may go as long as 500 miles before I jump into the throttle. Is it possible I am not getting on the car enough to keep carbon deposits down?
On the O2 sensor I was only guessing since they were 127.00 a peice (a few years ago) for my f150 and that was aftermarket. Wouldn't the computer kick a code if it was O2?

Thanks again,

Ahren

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2003 mACH 1, Screaming Yellow 289.82 rwhp 317.99 rwtq CAI, Flowmasters, SCT Tune. SOLD

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it may or may not. and i would stick to motorcraft as far as o2 sensors go. aftermarket electronics companies tend not to be as reliable as good old ford.

and i've never heard of carbon deposits causing such a big problem on such a low mileage engine. if you want i guess you could run some seafoam through it. that would kill all (if any) carbon buildup that you would have.

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That is good, I learned something about the "learning curve" I always wonderd how it worked generaly and the "WOT".I knew that it learned over a long period of time but I did not know it had nothing to do with the "WOT" table.But I still wonder why mine does it on a rare occasion?I have no codes and a diablo 93 tune.I do need to change the fuel filter.Thanks guys for letting me chim in here.

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