GM is doing it right & Ford is making a mistake - Ford Mustang Forum
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-31-2004 Thread Starter
PONY Member
V6 Member
S197 Member
 
Glen's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2002
Location: San Diego County
Posts: 911
 
GM is doing it right & Ford is making a mistake

Don't get me wrong....I will never own a GM and I love my Mustang, but Ford could learn something from GM in regards to engines.

I came on a stop like against a Cadillac CTS-V the other day. Now this wasn't really a race, because I didn't know what it was, but it had huge brakes on it and the lic plate said something about it being bad. So, we take off from the light and I step on it somewhat hard thinking it most likely had a NorthStar engine and I would play with it a little. To make a long story short, this thing left behind me pretty hard.

So, I get home thinking it was some tuner car and I do a search on the web. Come to find out it turns mid-13's stock.

GM basically took a Corvette and made into a Cadillac. They did the same thing with their GTO. These cars are serious contenders for most Mustangs, excluding the latest Cobra.

GM decided to keep and use the same engine for all their performance vehicles. They spent their time making it rock solid. It is simple in design, easy to mod, and has cubic inches.

I do think the 4.6 is a better engine. Smoother, and actually puts out more HP per cubic inch. But Ford is making some major mistakes in my opinion and it is flustrating me. If the 4.6L were stretched to 5.4L in displacement, the engine would be a killer to anything it came up against. Look at what extremes Ford and us Mustang enthusiasts are having to go too, so this engine will put out some serious HP. Not to mention the money costs.

Now I know some of you will say that there is not enough room in the engine compartment for a 5.4L. But the truth is, the current 4.6L can easily be stroked and bored by Ford in the factory to 5.4L without any dimenional changes externally.

The 4.6L is a weak engine. It could, for not much money on a Ford mass production line, be made to be bullet proof. Enough said on this subject.

So Ford leaves all this to the aftermarket. Well, the aftermarket is very slow in developing parts for the 4.6L (in all varieties) because it is a very complex design and it is very expensive. So, just when the aftermarket begins to come out with parts (we can afford), what does Ford do?.... they again change the design of the 2005 engines, making the after market start over again for performance parts. Did they bump the displacement? No! Did they bump the performance? Yes, but rather then significantly beefing up the engine, they carried over much of the same weakness, thus pushing the engine to 300hp and more or less reaching it's limit of HP reliably. So, if mustang enthusiasts want to reach 400hp with the engine, they will be on barrowed engine life. That is, when parts become available in a FEW years from now at a premium.

Meanwhile, GM just keeps cranking out performance cars off the cuff, with the same proven engine/performance. All of which are easily faster then the Mustang, and can be made to go even faster for cheap.

But from Fords perspective, they will sell a ton of Mustangs regardless, so who cares. SVT stuggles to stay alive and I know they do what they can to make their boss's see the light. But, they have much less power to make any influence as long as the Camaro is gone and sales boom. I believe in about 5 years, SVT will be history, and the Cobra or what ever they decide to make it, is mass produced. Afterall, it doesn't take a special division to slap on a SC and name it something from the past.

Just my opinion. Ford could learn something from GM on an enthusiasts level. But GM could learn something from Ford on how to sell performance cars and actually make money at it.


-2007 Roush Nitemare Stage 3 Supercharged #48 of 100
Glen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-31-2004
 
GTron's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 200
 
The Caddy has a ZO6 Corvette engine in it and sells for over 50k. I would beg to differ with you as far as GM doing it right and Ford doing it wrong. GM and Chevrolet in particular do not have any AFFORDABLE performance vehicles to sell to the public.The Corvette and that ugly ass retro pick up truck SSR are in the $40k to $50k range. That is out of the price range of all but a few people. Pontiac has the GTO which isn't badly priced for what you get but it isn't selling because of bad styling. GM is placing all of the the V-8 rear drive performance vehicles in the price range that most people can not afford. Why is GM making the Cadillac Division their performance division? Ford has the Mustang GT, Cobra, and Mach 1. With some hard bargining and rebates you can get a GT for the low 20' s and a Mach for the mid 20's . The new Mustang GT will have 300hp and will probably sell in the mid 20's after the initial excitement dies down. True the Mustang is not the hottest thing on the road but it is faster than a majority of the cars out there and people can afford to buy and operate one. It is a V-8 rear wheel drive car which are very few and far between now. I must agree with you about Ford's stubborn adherence to the 4.6. It is easy enough to stroke the 4.6 to 5.0. The deck height and width of the 4.6 stroker would be unchanged and would easily fit in anything Ford makes. The Maurauder should have been a 5.4 twin cam engine rather than a 4.6. The company that really "GETS IT" is Chrysler. They are abandoning the front wheel drive platforms in their full sized cars and are going to rear wheel drive. The Chrysler 300C and the Dodge Magnum RT with the 340 hp hemi's smoke. They can be had for under $35k

GTron is offline  
post #3 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-31-2004
Banned
V6 Member
5.0L Member
 
tormenting5.0's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Cape May County
Posts: 847
 
Send a message via AIM to tormenting5.0 Send a message via Yahoo to tormenting5.0
I agree with gtron, gm does have a good ideal but a halfass plan. I like the new cts-v and gto, but would buy a gt over those two any day. Hell the new C-6 is "only 400hp" which any stang can hit. Hell for under 5-6K any mustang could smoke any other rear wheel drive car. And I do agree Ford needs to cut thier **** out, with changing eng. setup every few years or so. 4.6 should be stroked out to a 5.0 and bring that image back to the street. And the mach 1 should be a 5.4 and the cobra a sc 5.4. They built the 5.0 crammer, so cram it into a Stock GT!!! My chevy 1500 w/5.7 would smoke my stang if it wasn't so heavy. Lets just face it, chevy has the upper hand in hp because they're trying to get over on ford. Who has the most number 1 cars/truck??? Ford, thats why we as customers are getting shafted by ford. Why improve something if it will sell anyways? So if chevy comes back out with the camaro i will buy one, if it still follows the concept of using the cts-v platform.
tormenting5.0 is offline  
 
post #4 of 63 (permalink) Old 08-01-2004
PONY Member
4.6L Member
 
Nazz's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: statesboro
Posts: 518
 
Send a message via AIM to Nazz Send a message via Yahoo to Nazz
I think the new GTO looks like crap.. :laughlitt

96 SVT COBRA
96 SALEEN #11
Nazz is offline  
post #5 of 63 (permalink) Old 08-01-2004
Classic Member
 
NipplelessHorse's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 20
 
It would be nice to see the 5.0 cammer in a stock GT. I don't think too many people are gunna lay down 15k for it though.
NipplelessHorse is offline  
post #6 of 63 (permalink) Old 08-01-2004
 
awstanggt2's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 209
 
Well I agree and disagree on certain points discussed in this post. Though GM may have the bigger engines, higher hp numbers..... They are killing off what heritage they have left!!!! The camaro is gone and that was one of the biggest competitors for the stangs. Though Ford may be trying to market there cars to sell in volumes they havent overlooked us. People tend to forget that moding our cars and the shear enjoyment from then comes at a price$$$. Its not a cheap hobby with any car and it only makes it that much more exciting when we accomplish what we want. Economically our 4.6's are putting out some great numbers for the liters. Why is it a z28 is only a tinny bit faster then our 281's and yet the have the OVER RAVED ABOUT 350?? Its pretty sad for the GM guys to see one of there 350's get smoked by a 281 with gears and exhaust. On another note, if you look back this is not a new thing for Ford to change over blocks, modeling, and so on. How long did they put in the 289's, then the 302's? Then they changed to the 4.6 and now almost a decade later they are ready for some fresh meat. Not only is it not terrible that they are changing everything, but is makes it that much more fun for perfomance. Any of us can bore out to a 351 in a couple days, and that only leaves something else to change on our cars down the road by dropping in a crate motor.

Im sorry, but the aftermarket for the 4.6 is nothing to be ashamed of. Take a look is some of the stang zines our there and I think you will find that its not a bare as you think it is. You name it and its out there and they have had plenty of time to create and improve on other designs. Eventually, you can only make SO MANY parts for the same engines and this change to another new motor only keeps fresh competition and products on the market to keep our heritage going strong. With any new car/engine you are going to experience a slow turn around on new parts at first, its unavoidable, but when they do, who knows what it could mean for our cars. Even after over 2 decades from the first 302's they still continue to turn our parts every year. This is only natural that the company is evolving and keeping the history alive and well at ford. You have to love a company that changes not only the exterior looks of our cars,trucks but also the guts that power them only to try and achieve high goals and performance. You don't just slap together a car, stuff a 350 in it and call it a classic. Time, planning, and sacrifice make a legend and we are all apart of it. Our time has come to step aside and let the new carry on our tradtions into the future.


LONG LIVE THE 281 AND MAY IT TAKE ITS PLACE AMOUNG THE GOLDEN HISTORY OF THE MUSTANG!
awstanggt2 is offline  
post #7 of 63 (permalink) Old 08-01-2004
GT Member
5.0L Member
 
STONECOLD's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: N.Y.C.
Posts: 2,139
 
Send a message via AIM to STONECOLD
I kinda agree with Glen. Someone else said that the engine in the cadillac is a vette motor, thats incorrect, it has the Z06 suspension, not motor. I thought the same thing at one point but I asked some one that I know at caddy and they pointed that out to me. I think Ford really needs to up the power and jump in the hp wars, I mean 300hp? thats it? for an 05 gt?? thats nothing. 5 years ago you could have bought a TA/Camaro with 320. That was 5 long years go and ford just caught up.(barely) The truth is the mustang isnt all that quick any more. There are plenty of FAMILY cars making as much or if not more hp right outta the show room. Were supposed to be driving muscle car, one of the ones that started it all at that. What happened to the muscle?

I know some people think the vette is high priced and out of our price range but look at it this way, considering that it competes with cars twice its price rance, your getting a great deal. The cobra is great its kinda the middle car I guess, but straight lines aside its no vette.

I got nothing against the 4.6 281, but I doubt itll be remembered for much.

1995 Mustang GT 5.0
BBK CAI, Pro-M 75mm MAF, Pro-M Optimizer, BBK 70mm TB, GT-40 Intake, 24# Injectors, AFR 165's, 1.7 Roller rockers, Crane 2040 cam (E-303) BBK Equal Length headers, BBK O/R X-pipe, Flowmaster American Thunder 2 Chambers. FMS 3.73 Gears, Lentech AODE 2800 stall, BBK 255lph Fuel Pump, BBK Fuel Pressure Regulator. MSD 6AL, Steeda UDP's, FMS Aluminum drive shaft, Autologic chip Larocca tune.
STONECOLD is offline  
post #8 of 63 (permalink) Old 08-01-2004
4.6L Member
 
hk500's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 29
 
Basically being fairly new to the Mustang hobby (2 years) I can only comment on my observations which are somewhat limited. I feel that the 4.6 engine is a good engine , but the state of tune could be higher for GT cars. I also think that the '05 4.6 3 valve setup is a big mistake since they are taking a fairly complex engine and making it much more complex. I completely believe that engine displacement should be the means to develop more power not added complexity! The current 4.6 is absurdly huge for its displacement. I have a vehicle with a Chrysler 383 whose engine is 7 inches narrower than a 4.6 at the valve cover!
Since the Gt is not in a price class of a Corvette, I think that it is unrealistic to expect like performance. I'm not a very competitive person, so when I drive, yes, I would like to race another car now and again, but the reality is that the GT is not a t the head of the performance class. I accept that and enjoy the heck out of the great performance, great sound, great handling, and great fuel economy at a reasonable cost. I think that is what the Mustang is all about.
hk500 is offline  
post #9 of 63 (permalink) Old 08-01-2004
V6 Member
 
Monkey Boy's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,579
 
I agree that the Mustang should have a 5.4 but I'm not complaining about the three valve heads. They make more power, they are easier on emissions, and they weigh no more than the two valve heads. You can complain about engines getting too complicated all you want but the fact of the matter is that they have to be in order to keep up with green peace. If you think Chevy and Dodges pushrods aren't more complicated than the old pushrod engine of yore, you are dead wrong. They have just as much technology in them as the 4.6.

Stone Cold, the Cadillac CTS-V DOES have the Z06's 5.7L 405 hp V8, not the suspension. It has the same shock technology that the 50th anniversary Vette has, but that is it.

Dodge is the one who is going to blow both Chevy and Ford out of the water in performance. When the 333hp Crossfire SRT-6 and the Hemi powered Dodge Charger comes out next year, we are going to get our asses handed to us.
Monkey Boy is offline  
GT Member
5.0L Member
 
STONECOLD's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: N.Y.C.
Posts: 2,139
 
Send a message via AIM to STONECOLD
i stand corrected, i was thinking of the regular CTS. thanx for pointing that out.

1995 Mustang GT 5.0
BBK CAI, Pro-M 75mm MAF, Pro-M Optimizer, BBK 70mm TB, GT-40 Intake, 24# Injectors, AFR 165's, 1.7 Roller rockers, Crane 2040 cam (E-303) BBK Equal Length headers, BBK O/R X-pipe, Flowmaster American Thunder 2 Chambers. FMS 3.73 Gears, Lentech AODE 2800 stall, BBK 255lph Fuel Pump, BBK Fuel Pressure Regulator. MSD 6AL, Steeda UDP's, FMS Aluminum drive shaft, Autologic chip Larocca tune.
STONECOLD is offline  
Rookie
 
jimmysidecarr's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Spring
Posts: 28
 
Here's one mustang it won't smoke!


MINE!!!!
Under $36k........(D-Plan)
Over head cam engines will always be taller and wider than cam in block...
FLATHEADS take up less room than OHVs..... We got over that transition

PS: Ford is working on larger displacement engines...... rumoured to be 6 liters.... Truck competion is driving these developments..... Not Mustangs!....... We will benefit though :thumbup

Jimmy

2004 SVT Mystichrome coupe
It's STOCK!!
jimmysidecarr is offline  
PONY Member
4.6L Member
 
SMOKE's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: Sugar Grove
Posts: 676
 
Cool

Great discussion (loosely TECH orientated) and I'd like to add. I disagree with you somewhat Glen. Perhaps because I'm looking at more than just the consumer's perspective.
HP wars ... who really wins? SALEs!!! Who owns the Pony car sales? Mustangs - in large part due to the V6
The 4.6L motor is a solid motor and will not be remembered as lovingly as the 5.0L but, that's hard as hard act to follow. The 3V set-up will push more hp and satisfy the masses begging for a bump but to think a GT should sport 400hp and run with Vettes and T/A and Vipers???? Wrong car ... not FORD's idea or market share. That's what consumers want.
FORD has given us strong performers; 4V DOHC motor and built S/C 4V DOHC both pushing under-rated HP numbers and folks complain? FORD has heard us ***** and moan and gave us the BULLITT, Mach 1 and perhaps the BOSS for those that want more performance than the GT is designed or intended to provide.
I know folks always want more .... but, how much more. What would be the perfect Mustang GT? Mustang Cobra -if they continue the name?

I think when folks focused in on the HP numbers of the Mustang vs some of these family sedans they miss the point. A Pony car is not a sports car it's a 2+2 and if the sedan hp#s look better ..... check the MSRP.

FORD is holding true to what it wants to provide the consumer within the Mustang heritage, and I think they are doing a fine job.
And hk500 hit it on the head in my view:
Quote:
I'm not a very competitive person, so when I drive, yes, I would like to race another car now and again, but the reality is that the GT is not a t the head of the performance class. I accept that and enjoy the heck out of the great performance, great sound, great handling, and great fuel economy at a reasonable cost. I think that is what the Mustang is all about.

03 ROUSH Cobra 1 of 6 *SOLD*
98 ROUSH Stage 2 GT *SOLD*

./_ ___ ___ __\.
(]]]_ _ o _ _[[[)
|\_o_FORD_o_/|
|__|..........|__|
SMOKE is offline  
GT Member
4.6L Member
5.0L Member
 
dollarbill's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: Decatur
Posts: 1,860
 
horses

I can't wait to see and hear about the new Lightning. I know it better have at least 500 horse to keep up with that new Dodge truck with 500 horse. I have faith in Ford that they will hit a grand slam in the next few years. Hey at least those TAs and Camaros are out of production, now we have to compete with the Hemi, GTO, cts-v, and the new 6 liter vette. Ford, please wake up and let your nuts hang out!!! :scream:

New Toy - Custom 92 GT soon to be a turbo beast
DHG 01 Bullitt - JLT, Mac o/r H, MGW, Bama tune, Focus pump, 3.73s, DRs best 1/4 13.50 @ 101 best 1/8 8.53 @ 82
Red/White 88 GT vert (SOLD)
Autumn Orange 97 GT (SOLD)
Black 89 LX best 8.46 1/8 mile (SOLD)
2011 F-150 Supercrew Ecoboost
dollarbill is offline  
 
thunderblue456's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1
 
ford performance

hey just recently jioned the forum just wanted to add a few things to think about and recieve comments on.
I think ford needs to decide what the mustang is supposed to be in competion with, i mean the corvette and the viper campare well together with power, speed and performance and there not worried about mustangs stealing sales from them becouse the people that have the money to buy there cars are the same ones buying porsches, audii tts and so on. Now the consumers buying the mustang are looking at competting with the chevy's supercharged monti carlo's, the gtp grand prixs, Dodge neon srt's and every riced out car that any normal person can afford. Now this might not bee in the quarter mile races but this is deffinettly what is giong on in the streets i live on. Mustangs haven't been able to compete with a corvete or a viper without major modifications and a lot of money spent basiclly rebiulding the car. When it comes to the gtp's and other supercharged chevy products. the mustang runs well against them stock but they aren't the stand out muscle car they are supposed to be. i don't mean to sound negative twords the mustang i own one myself and love it . But I hate being beat or come close to it by neons, gtps, acura's, 3000GT's , civics and so on. So if ford wants to be a muscle car they need to look at the buying market and pick some one to compete with. Even when there were camoro's and firebirds being sold brand new the mustang wasn't really in that market either , i mean 1/4 mile tracks the stangs cleaned up on the street but when your road racing against a 350 camero once you hit 115mph the camero had you becosue the stang just runs out of top end. So do the cars really compare? i don't think so i mean you can change the gear ratio's, and change how much power the cars have so they run with the competion. but thats all aftermarket. what does the mustang compare to when it leaves the show room . so thanks for reading this and give me your thoughts please. Proud owner of a 1995 ford mustang.
thunderblue456 is offline  
V6 Member
 
Monkey Boy's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,579
 
I don't know how anyone can say GM is doing it right. After killing two of the three sports cars they had, all they have done is slapped some superchargers on a couple of FWD pontiacs, rebadged an ugly, overweight Australian coupe, produced a sports truck out of an extended cab (what the hell were they thinking?) Silverado that doesn't have the power or handling ability to compete with its intended competition, and created an ugly, slow El Camino that costs almost as much as an SRT-10. So, besides the C6 Vette and the LS-6 Caddy (two fabulous vehicles, by the way), what has Chevy done right? Nothing.

Ford, on the other hand, is doing quite nicely. After 40 years, the Mustang finally killed the last of its direct competition and now has it's unique niche all to itself. On top of that, the car is getting a major overhaul for the new model year and will be a vast improvement over the previous car. Ford has produced its first supercar since the Pantera and it has proven to be a huge bargain in price compared to it's competition. Also, the Lightning has a brand new chassis and a promising powertrain in development to compete with it's first real competition, the Ram SRT-10 and the next-gen Cobra is going to be moving upscale and will be competing with the likes of the Vette and Viper. So, other than the fact that Ford has no real entry into the "tuner" market thanks to the demise of the SVT Focus (like anyone cares about this dying market, anyways), what is Ford doing wrong? Nothing.

Monkey Boy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a VALID email address for yourself, otherwise you will not receive the necessary confirmation email needed to confirm, validate and activate your new AFM member account.

Failure to provide a VALID email address, will result in the cancellation of your new AFM member account registration.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tracking your Car Build and Shipping Dates wantonebad05 2005-2010 Mustang Talk 5555 01-25-2013 08:28 PM
First kill in my Mustang AgentSteel53 Kill Stories 106 02-28-2010 02:38 AM
Dealers Adding $3K to MSRP of 2005 Mustangs - Your Opinion Please Glen 2005-2010 Mustang Talk 96 12-14-2008 02:47 PM
2007 GT 500 Cobra tripleblack SVT Cobra Talk 56 02-22-2006 09:28 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1