koni vs bilstein - Ford Mustang Forum
Like Tree6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-11-2018 Thread Starter
Rookie
 
ZeroFoxGivn's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2017
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 9
 
Question koni vs bilstein

whats up? this is my first fox so im looking for some advice. i have a 1990 gt hatchback, the previous owner lowered it and went the cheap route. I want to replace the shocks, struts, and springs but i need some guidance on which shocks and struts to go with. I want to put it back close to stock height, id be ok with 1"-1.5" drop but i do not want anything crazy. I have been looking at bilstein b6s vs the koni yellows. my car is about 97% stock as it sits but my vision for her is a totally functional mountain twisty carver; similar to matt farah's fox, that is the exact type of build ive always wanted to do and when i saw he it completely clicked. please let me know if you have an experience with either the koni's or the bilsteins. which would you recommend for overall quality and ride? am i looking at the right products for what i want to achieve with the build? is there another brand i should consider? Ive looked around a lot and narrowed it down to these 2 but if there is a brand i am missing out on let me know! thank you for the help guys. you can follow the build on ig: zerofoxgivn.

Edit: i have been leaning towards bilstein and farah's build uses bilsteins, i just want to see what you fox pros run

ZeroFoxGivn is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-11-2018
BOSS Member
 
Beechkid's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,426
           
I almost chuckle when I see postings that say ONLY THISSHOCK, or THIS SHOCK IS TOO STIFF, etc.......it is all dependent upon 1 thing"what type of feel does the owner want" and final shock determinationis based upon 3 factors:
1. Tires (specific construction)
2. Springs (rate & design including progressive style)
3. Road conditions
  • Koni- Excellent for racing applications- overpriced forstreet applications IMHO
  • Tokico, QA1 & Bilstein- A very good shock forstreet/strip applications. If you arerunning very stiff tires on the street (such as Bridgstone or tires withprofiles shorter than 50 series), these provide the extra give that you needfor both comfort & stability. But, Tokico & Bilstein both have and continue to experience QA issues that seem to be cyclic.....
  • KYB- A very good shock for street/stripapplications. If you are running asofter tires on the street (such as BFG or tires with profiles not shorter than50 series), these provide the extra stiffness that you need for both comfort& stability. The Exel-Gís (formerlyGR-2) are the equivalent to the Edelbrock IAS automatic adjusting units. Overall, stiffness between the Gas-a-just andthe GR2ís are the same, the difference is the GR-2's valving which stiffens thingsup from a oem setting to that of the Gas-a-just units.. Best shock for the $/best price typicallyfound at Performance Suspension Technologies (PST) and typically about 1/3 lessthan Bilstein.
  • Gabriel- A very nice good quality HD OEM replacementtype unit.


my89foxbody likes this.

:hello:
Member: Never trust a person over 40 who drives a Chevy club
Flatheads ain't so bad!
Certified backyard mechanic I & II
Beechkid is offline  
post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018
SHELBY GT 350 Member
 
90lxwhite's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,825
           
I think if you really want to get serious about carving corners you need a set of coil-overs. I’d probably get the bilstein’s if money was no object. But since it usual is, I’d probably go with neither. I probably wouldn’t put all my eggs in the shock and strut basket. Twenty year old cars are going to have twenty year old car problems. There will always be something that needs fixing. I’m using KYB GR2/Excel-g’s and ford racing b springs on my ‘95. The springs lowered the ride about an inch. It’s stiff and has minimal body roll but it won’t beat you to death. It’s making a bit more power than when it was stock and it hasn’t over powered the shocks and springs yet. But it’s overpowered the tires plenty.
A good set of tires and stock suspension will outperform bilsteins and cheap tires all day long.
Are you planning on doing independent rear suspension like Matt? Then would you just be buying the front struts and springs now? Or are you going to buy twice?
90lxwhite is offline  
 
post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018
PONY Member
4.6L Member
 
stormsedge's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Location: E. TN
Posts: 329
 
...or buy the whole kit matched for a canyon carver with the ride height you want---springs, struts, shocks, sway bars, (also think rear control arms).

Underestimate me, that will be fun.
GREEN WORM RACING--since 1959

These are my opinions...YOU are responsible for YOUR decisions and YOUR outcomes...AND, my not arguing with you does not indicate agreement with your opinion.
stormsedge is offline  
post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018
SHELBY GT 350 Member
 
90lxwhite's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,825
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormsedge View Post
...or buy the whole kit matched for a canyon carver with the ride height you want---springs, struts, shocks, sway bars, (also think rear control arms).
Does a 20+ year old 200 hp motor have enough torque to need a high end suspension “kit?”
Sway bars- overated. The factory pieces aren’t bad, especially when being pushed around by a 200 hp motor. Replace the bushings in them and you should be good to go.
Rear control arms are a good upgrade if they’re needed. Say a guy is making enough power to where the rear end wants to come around. Aftermarket control arms would be beneficial. Old stock power, maybe not so much. When I was making 205 hp at the wheels, the rear end was fairly tame. When I made 332 the azz would want to dance around. Aftermarket rear arms now keep the tail straight if the tires don’t get blown off the launch. They did help cornering though by keeping the tail in the right direction.
Honestly I’d start with the front end wear items. Ball joints, tie rods, etc.
90lxwhite is offline  
post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018 Thread Starter
Rookie
 
ZeroFoxGivn's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2017
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 9
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
I think if you really want to get serious about carving corners you need a set of coil-overs... Iíd probably get the bilsteinís if money was no object... Iím using KYB GR2/Excel-gís and ford racing b springs on my Ď95... Are you planning on doing independent rear suspension like Matt? Then would you just be buying the front struts and springs now? Or are you going to buy twice?
thanks for all the feedback guys. I have dreams of buying a set of coilovers, i will someday. Ive got some money saved up and as my christmas present, the wife is okaying the price of the bilsteins so i am going to go with them. I ran kybs on my 04 mini s and they were great. ive never ran bilsteins and have only heard people singing their praise so im going to finally pull the trigger and order them. I am planning on doing the irs swap someday but i do not see that happening for quite a while. i was planning on just crossing that bridge when i got there.
my89foxbody likes this.
ZeroFoxGivn is offline  
post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018
PONY Member
4.6L Member
 
stormsedge's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Location: E. TN
Posts: 329
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
Does a 20+ year old 200 hp motor have enough torque to need a high end suspension ďkit?Ē
Sway bars- overated. The factory pieces arenít bad, especially when being pushed around by a 200 hp motor. Replace the bushings in them and you should be good to go.
Rear control arms are a good upgrade if theyíre needed. Say a guy is making enough power to where the rear end wants to come around. Aftermarket control arms would be beneficial. Old stock power, maybe not so much. When I was making 205 hp at the wheels, the rear end was fairly tame. When I made 332 the azz would want to dance around. Aftermarket rear arms now keep the tail straight if the tires donít get blown off the launch. They did help cornering though by keeping the tail in the right direction.
Honestly Iíd start with the front end wear items. Ball joints, tie rods, etc.
IMO, yes...I didn't notice that big of price difference in getting all the pieces together over piecemeal and it puts to rest the question (he is asking) of what works with what? HP/torque is great to ponder, but the weight of the vehicle with the forces of mutha nature are there to be reckoned with as well...I'm not advocating some high end coilover sort of rig, just a suspension set picked to work together at the ride height one is looking for...or put stock springs back on it and get the ride height back up--they work fine. Front end wear parts for sure...I sometimes make the broad assumption most folks will go after those if needed. Sway bars are a matter of personal taste I guess...mine made a big difference in the car when put together with subframe ties and tower braces to square up the old convertible (which many claim as a waste of money as well). BUT, opinions vary...write down everyone's advice, go look at your car, plan your plan deleting the advice that either doesn't apply or costs too much and execute it. Enjoy.

Underestimate me, that will be fun.
GREEN WORM RACING--since 1959

These are my opinions...YOU are responsible for YOUR decisions and YOUR outcomes...AND, my not arguing with you does not indicate agreement with your opinion.
stormsedge is offline  
post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018
SHELBY GT 350 Member
 
90lxwhite's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,825
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormsedge View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
Does a 20+ year old 200 hp motor have enough torque to need a high end suspension “kit?”
Sway bars- overated. The factory pieces aren’t bad, especially when being pushed around by a 200 hp motor. Replace the bushings in them and you should be good to go.
Rear control arms are a good upgrade if they’re needed. Say a guy is making enough power to where the rear end wants to come around. Aftermarket control arms would be beneficial. Old stock power, maybe not so much. When I was making 205 hp at the wheels, the rear end was fairly tame. When I made 332 the azz would want to dance around. Aftermarket rear arms now keep the tail straight if the tires don’t get blown off the launch. They did help cornering though by keeping the tail in the right direction.
Honestly I’d start with the front end wear items. Ball joints, tie rods, etc.
IMO, yes...I didn't notice that big of price difference in getting all the pieces together over piecemeal and it puts to rest the question (he is asking) of what works with what? HP/torque is great to ponder, but the weight of the vehicle with the forces of mutha nature are there to be reckoned with as well...I'm not advocating some high end coilover sort of rig, just a suspension set picked to work together at the ride height one is looking for...or put stock springs back on it and get the ride height back up--they work fine. Front end wear parts for sure...I sometimes make the broad assumption most folks will go after those if needed. Sway bars are a matter of personal taste I guess...mine made a big difference in the car when put together with subframe ties and tower braces to square up the old convertible (which many claim as a waste of money as well). BUT, opinions vary...write down everyone's advice, go look at your car, plan your plan deleting the advice that either doesn't apply or costs too much and execute it. Enjoy.
Subframe connectors seemed to be a pretty good buy for me too. I did the cheap standard length weld in type w the seat bracket attachments.
What kit did you go with? I “pieced” mine out mainly due the upfront cost of a kit. All the pieces went on with spands of time in between. You’re right, rubber rear control arm bushings do deteriorate like all rubbers, and it’s probably easier to replace the whole arm than to press in new bushings. I think the new bushings in the new arms are what makes the bulk of the improvement. The solid arms are a nice addition too, but the stock motor isn’t exactly being hindered by the stamped arms. My old tired ‘90 didn’t have enough power to make the rear end wag if I floored it from a dead stop. It was an automatic though. My ‘95’s tail end would want to come around going from a roll to wot with the old stock stamped arms. After new and improved rear arms the rear is much more manageable.
90lxwhite is offline  
post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018
SHELBY GT 350 Member
 
90lxwhite's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,825
           
90lxwhite is offline  
PONY Member
4.6L Member
 
stormsedge's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2017
Location: E. TN
Posts: 329
 
LOL. You've got me there as I pieced mine as well, after deciding to keep the standard ride height due to my driveway and some of the roads I encounter. In the OP's case, with a car modified by someone else without the specs on what is there, it seemed good advice (though not essential) to start with all the pieces spec'd to the ride height desired. So, it seems either way is "the" way to go depending on the amount of time and thought one wishes to expend on picking the pieces. I liked Beechkid's thoughtful rundown on struts/shocks...I have both Bilstein and Konis on vehicles here, but no doubt other brands would have performed as well under the conditions I impose.

In my case, even with the stock motor, the pieces described over this series of posts settled the car substantially in the twisties...virtually eliminating the feeling of it trying to go another direction than where pointed or break loose. ((MM HD RLCA Poly/Spherical and Ford UCA rubber, btw)). Keep smiling.
stormsedge is offline  
GT Member
5.0L Member
S197 Member
 
my89foxbody's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Dracut
Posts: 1,405
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroFoxGivn View Post
thanks for all the feedback guys. I have dreams of buying a set of coilovers, i will someday. Ive got some money saved up and as my christmas present, the wife is okaying the price of the bilsteins so i am going to go with them. I ran kybs on my 04 mini s and they were great. ive never ran bilsteins and have only heard people singing their praise so im going to finally pull the trigger and order them. I am planning on doing the irs swap someday but i do not see that happening for quite a while. i was planning on just crossing that bridge when i got there.
Good choice, I like the Bilstein's, I've run KYB adjustable's on a different car after having Bilsteins and I went back to Bilstein for the stiffness and the confidence in cornering. I'd also recommend adjustable strut plates to get good alignment adjustments. Negative camber and as much as possible positive caster will definitely help in handling. The print out of the alignment attached would greatly improve stability and cornering versus a car without the adjustable strut plates
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	align002.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	197.9 KB
ID:	607415   Click image for larger version

Name:	camber.gif
Views:	21
Size:	8.5 KB
ID:	607417   Click image for larger version

Name:	Steering-7-600x400.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	33.4 KB
ID:	607419  


2014 GT Premium, Track Pack, Barton shifter, Borla S-type exhaust, Resonator delete, 3.73 gears, Airaid C.A.I., 93 Race Tune, JLT Oil Separator
my89foxbody is offline  
SHELBY GT 350 Member
 
90lxwhite's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,825
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormsedge View Post
LOL. You've got me there as I pieced mine as well, after deciding to keep the standard ride height due to my driveway and some of the roads I encounter. In the OP's case, with a car modified by someone else without the specs on what is there, it seemed good advice (though not essential) to start with all the pieces spec'd to the ride height desired. So, it seems either way is "the" way to go depending on the amount of time and thought one wishes to expend on picking the pieces. I liked Beechkid's thoughtful rundown on struts/shocks...I have both Bilstein and Konis on vehicles here, but no doubt other brands would have performed as well under the conditions I impose.

In my case, even with the stock motor, the pieces described over this series of posts settled the car substantially in the twisties...virtually eliminating the feeling of it trying to go another direction than where pointed or break loose. ((MM HD RLCA Poly/Spherical and Ford UCA rubber, btw)). Keep smiling.
I have j&m rear lowers with max motor’s oem style replacement uppers. I dig ‘em.
Quote:
Originally Posted by my89foxbody View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroFoxGivn View Post
thanks for all the feedback guys. I have dreams of buying a set of coilovers, i will someday. Ive got some money saved up and as my christmas present, the wife is okaying the price of the bilsteins so i am going to go with them. I ran kybs on my 04 mini s and they were great. ive never ran bilsteins and have only heard people singing their praise so im going to finally pull the trigger and order them. I am planning on doing the irs swap someday but i do not see that happening for quite a while. i was planning on just crossing that bridge when i got there.
Good choice, I like the Bilstein's, I've run KYB adjustable's on a different car after having Bilsteins and I went back to Bilstein for the stiffness and the confidence in cornering. I'd also recommend adjustable strut plates to get good alignment adjustments. Negative camber and as much as possible positive caster will definitely help in handling. The print out of the alignment attached would greatly improve stability and cornering versus a car without the adjustable strut plates
How often were you adjusting the shocks? Would you set it on different settings depending on which track you were racing? Was it very hard to find an alignment shop that does custom alignments? I think all anyone would do around here is factory settings. Hope does adjusting the caster/camber affect tire wear? Do they still ware even? What springs do you have? Maybe it’s the difference in the body, but I don’t have any float or roll with regular ole KYB non adjustables and Ford B springs. There’s a bumpy FM road that I like to cruise sometimes that has a big sweeping corner that goes downhill and then back up. The cheap KYB’s manage it at 80-90 mph.
90lxwhite is offline  
GT Member
5.0L Member
S197 Member
 
my89foxbody's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: Dracut
Posts: 1,405
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
I have j&m rear lowers with max motorís oem style replacement uppers. I dig Ďem.

How often were you adjusting the shocks? Would you set it on different settings depending on which track you were racing? Was it very hard to find an alignment shop that does custom alignments? I think all anyone would do around here is factory settings. Hope does adjusting the caster/camber affect tire wear? Do they still ware even? What springs do you have? Maybe itís the difference in the body, but I donít have any float or roll with regular ole KYB non adjustables and Ford B springs. Thereís a bumpy FM road that I like to cruise sometimes that has a big sweeping corner that goes downhill and then back up. The cheap KYBís manage it at 80-90 mph.
Bilsteins are not adjustable like the KYB's, I set the KYB's to the stiffest setting because I like a firm ride with tires planted to the ground. As for the alignment if you look at the print out there's a specified range, camber can go to -1.4 to +.2 and caster is 1.2 to 2.7 if you go beyond the -1.4 you would see more inner edge tire wear. Caster doesn't really affect tire wear, it's more of a tracking adjustment, the more caster you have the better and easier cornering would feel. Mercedes Benz has very high caster settings from the factory (9.3 to 10.3) that's why they handle well. So if you ask an alignment shop to go with negative camber and high caster they should do it for you at your request
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Scan1.jpg
Views:	51
Size:	43.2 KB
ID:	607421  


2014 GT Premium, Track Pack, Barton shifter, Borla S-type exhaust, Resonator delete, 3.73 gears, Airaid C.A.I., 93 Race Tune, JLT Oil Separator
my89foxbody is offline  
SHELBY GT 350 Member
 
90lxwhite's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,825
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by my89foxbody View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
I have j&m rear lowers with max motor’s oem style replacement uppers. I dig ‘em.

How often were you adjusting the shocks? Would you set it on different settings depending on which track you were racing? Was it very hard to find an alignment shop that does custom alignments? I think all anyone would do around here is factory settings. Hope does adjusting the caster/camber affect tire wear? Do they still ware even? What springs do you have? Maybe it’s the difference in the body, but I don’t have any float or roll with regular ole KYB non adjustables and Ford B springs. There’s a bumpy FM road that I like to cruise sometimes that has a big sweeping corner that goes downhill and then back up. The cheap KYB’s manage it at 80-90 mph.
As for the alignment if you look at the print out there's a specified range, camber can go to -1.4 to +.2 and caster is 1.2 to 2.7 if you go beyond the -1.4 you would see more inner edge tire wear. Caster doesn't really affect tire wear, it's more of a tracking adjustment, the more caster you have the better and easier cornering would feel. Mercedes Benz has very high caster settings from the factory (9.3 to 10.3) that's why they handle well. So if you ask an alignment shop to go with negative camber and high caster they should do it for you at your request
Ah ok cool. Thanks
90lxwhite is offline  
SHELBY GT 350 Member
 
90lxwhite's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,825
           
I don’t have a pic hand of the ‘90 I had but here’s my ‘95 with an inch or less drop. I’ll try to get an old pic of the ‘90. But it was too low. The blue one is my ‘95 and for comparison sake here’s dad’s red ‘97 with stock springs and ride height. Maybe y’all can post pics of y’alls foxes and say what springs are on them so ole boy can get an idea. The blue one that’s lowered has 17” wheels, the red one has 16”.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	87A1B0A2-E6E4-40B7-9BB1-F7C88528CB12_1544726360118.jpeg
Views:	45
Size:	805.6 KB
ID:	607433   Click image for larger version

Name:	3EE9EEAF-45B2-44D9-959C-286D214A5617_1544726405784.jpeg
Views:	43
Size:	936.1 KB
ID:	607435  
90lxwhite is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a VALID email address for yourself, otherwise you will not receive the necessary confirmation email needed to confirm, validate and activate your new AFM member account.

Failure to provide a VALID email address, will result in the cancellation of your new AFM member account registration.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
 


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1