Electric Water Pump 351 issues - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2020 Thread Starter
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Electric Water Pump 351 issues

In my infinite wisdom, I decided to order a Holley - Frostbite 22-123 electric water pump for my 351C (all apparently stock 1970 parts) in my 69'.

The outlet pipe is so close to the harmonic balancer that there is no possible way anything but a paper-thin hose would fit on it, and even that might rub.

I contact Holley, sent them a picture, they said it might have been a production problem on early units that was corrected by adjusting the location/angle of the hole that the outlet is threaded into. They sent me a brand new one straight from them.

Fast forward 2 years. I finally get my ass in gear and start working on the car again. Go to install the brand new one. Same. Exact. Problem. I send them an email with picuture. Guy says send it back to Summit or where ever I bought it. Which I can't remember, because now it's been like 3 years since I bought it and can't find the slip. I tell him that this is one that I got from Holley directly as a replacement for the same problem and include a pic of the Holley invoice from the second one. No further replies. Super.

Also, you think they'd mention that the stock alternator location isn't going to work anymore, and that only 1 company sells brackets to relocate it to a spot that will work? Expensive lesson learned.

I ordered a 5" outlet pipe from Summit today (Holley part is 3.5" long), so I'm hoping that will get far enough past the balancer to solve the problem, otherwise I'll be heading to the plumbing isle.

Has anyone else run into this issue?




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BS

(69' Mach 1, 351C 4spd)
(Pardon any stupid questions, I'm a hobbyist, not a mechanic)
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2020 Thread Starter
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Problemo

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Respectfully,
BS

(69' Mach 1, 351C 4spd)
(Pardon any stupid questions, I'm a hobbyist, not a mechanic)
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2020
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Ouch. To add to your problemo, the electric pumps SUCK on cars that actually get driven. They are marginal for drag cars, but for street cars? They move about as much as a car at idle would, but they don't ramp up with engine speed, so often, out on the open road, you may have serious overheating issues. They also don't usually last too long.


I hope you have better luck with yours than the other people I know who have used one!
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2020
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I would not recommend an electric water pump either. Get a regular one and put that on ebay.

If you're set on using it, maybe it can be taken apart and "clocked" to work properly.

You should also review the electrical circuits in your car to see if it can handle the amperage needed. I've done extensive electrical mods on my '64 TBird to use an electric cooling fan that draws 40 amps. The OE alternator was rated at 40 amps, replacements are typically 100. I installed a new fuse/ relay panel and back-fed the OE panel with a 40 amp fuse.

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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2020
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IMHO, holley did you a favor with the "oops"...…. I would really not want to run one of those on any street driven vehicle!!!!!!!
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020 Thread Starter
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When I got the car it ran like crap. After I adjusted the timing and carb and had it starting and running strong it would throw up about 30 seconds after shutting it down. My line of thinking at the time I ordered it originally, as flawed as this may be, was that I could set up the fans and water pump on a relay or switch so that I could let them both run for 30 seconds or so after I shut off the engine so that it wouldn't boil over. (Instead of addressing whatever was actually causing the problem like I should have I suppose).

I appreciate all the feedback. I'll likely swap it out eventually. At this point I'm pretty invested. I'd like to just get it back on the road with what I've got, then adjust as necessary I guess. I really wanted to do a cam and heads while it was apart but I think I'll probably pick up and build a Windsor and then swap out the whole shebang. The Cleveland obviously isnt the correct motor for the year and it seems to be a lot harder to get aftermarket parts for than the more common Windsor. Maybe I'll do a serious Clevor build or make it easy and just buy a crate and put a 5 speed in it. The new Ford Performance 460 small block would be awesome but $$$.

The 5" outlet pipe came in today and the 100amp 1 wire alternator, relocation bracket, and serpentine set should be in tomorrow.

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Respectfully,
BS

(69' Mach 1, 351C 4spd)
(Pardon any stupid questions, I'm a hobbyist, not a mechanic)
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020 Thread Starter
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If I do smarten up and just get a mechanical water pump is there any issue going with a high flow vs standard? It's got stock heads and cam at the moment, but can't leave anything alone and might throw more go fast parts at it, and don't want to have to buy another water pump at that point.

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BS

(69' Mach 1, 351C 4spd)
(Pardon any stupid questions, I'm a hobbyist, not a mechanic)
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020 Thread Starter
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New 5" outlet is perfect. This is what should come with the pump, not the 3.45" one.

However, I've left a message with CVF racing since it appears my alternator bracket and pulley kit still hasnt shipped. If possible I'll have them send me a high flow water pump along with the new alternator, bracket, and serpentine set.

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BS

(69' Mach 1, 351C 4spd)
(Pardon any stupid questions, I'm a hobbyist, not a mechanic)
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020
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BlackSunshine, this is one of those things where there have been a few bad decisions made, but there's no need to keep going down that path out of sheer bloody-minded determination. I am glad that the new outlet works! However, risking overheating your engine and causing catastrophic failure while just driving around is probably not worth it.

I run into this a lot in my job, fixing computers. "Ma'am, I'm sorry, but this antivirus program is actually malware, and it's not protecting your system - it's causing problems." "But I paid for it! I still have 8 months left!" "Yes, but wouldn't you rather have a program that actually does what it's supposed to?" ...

... you can see the similarities in the situation here. But I don't say these things to make you feel dumb or hurt your feelings in any way! Not knowing better, I've made a lot of choices with my car that I had to go back and fix later. I just want to save you some major pain!



Since the pump is effectively new, selling it so some drag racer can use it would be the best possible outcome right now.

In answer to your other question, the high-flow pumps are sometimes fine, but pulley diameter for them is important. Many of them will cavitate, creating tiny pockets of vacuum and supersonic shockwaves that hammer the impeller and eat it away like tiny sledgehammers, when you spin the engine to high RPMs. In the end, a stock pump often works better. Your best bet is to go with a good 3-core brass or 2 core aluminum "big block" radiator and 7 blade thermal clutch fan, or electric fan. Clevelands have some oddities about their thermostat, but you can find plenty of info about that in other posts.


Best wishes!
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I too strongly agree with Grimbrand, for street vehicles, avoid the "high flow" water pumps.....coolant has to have time to transfer the heat.....absorbing and dissipating and in street applications...… moving too fast can easily create overheating situation. To follow up on radiators..... avoid the PR materials as well.....


I knowmany seem to be under the impression (marketing) that aluminum construction byitself will enhance cooling, there is a little more to it than that...and inmany instances buyers are actually comparing apples to oranges when comparing acopper core spec to an aluminum spec radiator. US Radiator has a nice vid ontheir site that yeah, it does talk about the company a bit, but also talksabout Copper vs aluminum & gives a good presentation of design limitations. US Radiator has been around for 50+years. The guy who presently owns itstarted working there 40 years ago and with the exception of 1 or 2 items,everything is built at their facility. They are also great to talk with on the phone and if you tell themexactly what you have, what are your concerns or wants, they will tell youexactly what to order. I don’t know ofanyone (including the racing community) who has not been pleased with them!

Link: U.S. Radiator | The Difference Is In The Tooling


US Radiator Corporation
4423 District Boulevard, Vernon, California
323-826-0965


Champion,AE IIRR correctly are all Chinese made.......now I’m not going to say justbecause it's Chinese made its junk...it’s not, but there are a lot of issueswith them........example...Assumingall of the seam are properly welded (they have their moments when pre-maturefailure- pinholes- occur), cooling is more than the number of tubes ormaterial, its number of fins versus number & size of tubes....i.e. rate offlow and the amount of heat that can be exchanged in a specific amount oftime.......many times these units are cheaper because they do not have anadequate number of fins...…


Qualityof welds........typically poor and pinholes start showing at the 5-8 year mark


Corrosion(internal).....almost all American radiators (aluminum) have or have as anoption (and usually recommend if not already permanently installed) an anode-basically acts as a sacrificial lamb for electrolysis based corrosion (very,very predominant with aluminum radiators, water pumps) and helps keep the phlevel neutral. Without this, I have seen a host of promulgated failuresincluding radiator, hoses, water pumps, head gaskets, thermostat covers- wherethe material is literally eaten away because of electrolysis.
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If you are selling the car, slapping an electric water pump on it to get it out the door is fine (somewhat unethical) but if you want to keep the car, get that junk off of there immediately.
And if you bought a car that someone slapped one on to get it out the door, get that junk off of there immediately.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020 Thread Starter
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Haha oh boy, did I mention I bought a big Champion radiator back when I bought the electric water pump too?
I test fit it yesterday, just to see, and couldn't close the hood by about an inch... I remembered though that I had also bought the wider lower radiator mounts as the new one doesn't fit in the originals, so hopefully its low enough when sitting in the new mounts.

I'm convinced and will be ditching the electric pump asap.

Anybody need one?

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Respectfully,
BS

(69' Mach 1, 351C 4spd)
(Pardon any stupid questions, I'm a hobbyist, not a mechanic)
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