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Originally Posted by FirstFord94 View Post
I don't care so much with the weight (the z28 is a porker, but handles amazingly well). But I think it's funny that you think the SN95 is worth mentioning here. Who wants a car that rides like an oxcart, a fisher price interior, and perhaps most importantly, a 20 yo swiss cheese chassis?

Not all of us like mustangs for the their straightline speed. I like road course work and I'd take an s197+ all day long. Once you add up all the necessary bracing, you're sn95 ain't that light.

And the s197 didn't handle like an oxcart and have fisher price interior? Lol sn95 came in mid 3200 lbs with an iron motor... even with all the reinforcements the coyote based s197 is still going to weigh more than the sn95. The expectations you all are setting for the mustang are downright unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by NoVa5.0 View Post
Big issue for me. Especially because the engineers and designers working on the s550 project initially said it was going to be lighter and smaller in every dimension. How that all got changed is beyond me.

Really, they just needed to make a 9/10ths scale version of the 2011-2014 car, add IRS, and be done with it.

Whether it means anything for sales, remains to be seen.
And it looks like the Camaro designers "get it." Stiffer and lighter.....sounds like the right formula!
2016 Chevrolet Camaro Spied with Far Less Camouflage – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radioguy View Post
And it looks like the Camaro designers "get it." Stiffer and lighter.....sounds like the right formula!
2016 Chevrolet Camaro Spied with Far Less Camouflage – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
If the Z28 can win MT Best Drivers Car weighing 3,800lbs a smaller/lighter version is going to be pretty awesome. Competition is good! I hope Ford has some cool tricks up its sleeve for the S550

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexArmageddon View Post
Dude, you could have swapped a coyote into a sn95 or fox and would have been faster. You could have built, forged, and boosted a 1st gen s197 or any previous model mustang a..you would have came out lighter and faster... but you chose to go heavy with the 11+ gt... am I the only one who finds it laughable you all are complaining?

I guess they should have scaled down the s197 too right? Can't believe you people are so up in arms over what 86lbs?
Ridiculous drivel.

If this afternoon Ford started spitting out brand new SN95s with Coyote motors and T56s for for $20-$25K, I would be in line to get one.

The reason I bought my car wasnt because of aesthetic or any other reason than to get a 400 hp manual RWD factory car.

I owned both a 96GT and a 99GT and would drive a 3300lb SN95 or new Edge all day over a 3700 lb S197 given that both cars had the same driveline.

The reason I didnt go with a motor swap is that its very hard to get a factory fit & finish and reliability with a motor swap. There is a lot of mix n match and fabrication involved and then you still need to tine for driveability and ensure all the elctronics are working right. It can be done, but its not a simple drop in the motor and trans prcoedure.

So yes, if Ford produce a brand new Coyote powered S95 or New Edge, I wouldnt hesitate for a second to buy the lighter car over the piggish S197 or S550.

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I haven't posted in a while, so for the sake of argument I'll throw my hat in.

I have been playing with 05-09s for a bit owned 4.
I stepped back and bought a new edge simply because I'd never owned one.

I then took a friend's '13 5.0 for a little drive...it felt like driving a boat. A very smooth and quiet boat.

Does that mean the 13 is bad? Not at all, it's 1st gear was light years ahead of mine. But I personally didn't care for the way it felt.

Is my chassis crap? Most assuredly. But at the same time I enjoy the more raw feeling it exudes.

I have yet to get the chance to hop in a 15, but I'm sure it will further address the failings of my car.

But in the end we have the cars we wanted right?
Granted I want another 05-09 one of these days, strictly because of looks. But I was lost in 2010 and haven't found myself wanting something newer since.
But that's just me, as it's been said time and time again, looks are subjective.
I know many people who absolutely hated the 05-09s, then those who fell in love with the 2010+, it's very subjective.
Power means jack squat to me. I don't race or hit the track. My car is well maintained, looks and sounds good. And to me, that's what I wanted.
But in the end my car weighs less than 3400, it isn't the fastest, but it's paid and I like it.
In the end shouldn't that be what matters?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radioguy View Post
And it looks like the Camaro designers "get it." Stiffer and lighter.....sounds like the right formula!
2016 Chevrolet Camaro Spied with Far Less Camouflage – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
Considering the amount of early talk about the Mustang shedding weight, I'll believe it with the Camaro when I see it.

That being said, it looks like they aren't doing anything to solve the major visibility issues the Camaro has, either.

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Damn! 27 posts and you already made it to my ignore list. Thats some kind of record!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexArmageddon View Post
And the s197 didn't handle like an oxcart and have fisher price interior? Lol sn95 came in mid 3200 lbs with an iron motor... even with all the reinforcements the coyote based s197 is still going to weigh more than the sn95. The expectations you all are setting for the mustang are downright unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by FastStang14 View Post


I know many people who absolutely hated the 05-09s, then those who fell in love with the 2010+,
This is me. I was revolted by the 05-09's. I thought them to be fat, ugly pigs. 2010 was more appealing but still fat and not all that well powered. 2011 was a revolution in the Mustang's history. The Coyote changed the game. You now had a sub $30K car that was making power that 6 figure exotics were making just a little over a decade ago.

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Quote:
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Ridiculous drivel.

If this afternoon Ford started spitting out brand new SN95s with Coyote motors and T56s for for $20-$25K, I would be in line to get one.

The reason I bought my car wasnt because of aesthetic or any other reason than to get a 400 hp manual RWD factory car.

I owned both a 96GT and a 99GT and would drive a 3300lb SN95 or new Edge all day over a 3700 lb S197 given that both cars had the same driveline.

The reason I didnt go with a motor swap is that its very hard to get a factory fit & finish and reliability with a motor swap. There is a lot of mix n match and fabrication involved and then you still need to tine for driveability and ensure all the elctronics are working right. It can be done, but its not a simple drop in the motor and trans prcoedure.

So yes, if Ford produce a brand new Coyote powered S95 or New Edge, I wouldnt hesitate for a second to buy the lighter car over the piggish S197 or S550.
My comment wasn't necessarily limiting to a coyote swap.. Even if you stuck with the 4.6 2v.. You could have simply forged it and boosted.. Still would have saved some coin and weight. I'm not trying to attack you all, but just know the logic the majority of you are going by is a little flawed.

End of the day... If weight was that important.. You wouldn't have accepted the near 300lb weight gain so readily in the 2011+ stangs from the Sn95, but because you all gained 100 Hp.. it was worth it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkandgud View Post
To be fair, the S197, especially the early 05-09, rode like oxcarts too and also had a fisher price interior...The interior didn't get semi-decent until 2010.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexArmageddon View Post
And the s197 didn't handle like an oxcart and have fisher price interior? Lol sn95 came in mid 3200 lbs with an iron motor... even with all the reinforcements the coyote based s197 is still going to weigh more than the sn95. The expectations you all are setting for the mustang are downright unrealistic.
Compared with the horrible chevy cavalier-esque interior of the SN95? You're kidding me right? The early s197 is like a Bentley in comparison. Of course, the updated s197, and more so the s550, makes it a bit more respectable compared with competitors.

You're also both on crack regarding the chassis comments. The early s197 was WORLDS better than the car it replaced primarily because the chassis was much stiffer.

Several review from the time were quite happy with the chassis/ride of the new car:

From a C&D review of the 05 GT:
"The next best thing about the Mustang is that it now rides like a modern car. Less jarring crash-through, fewer expansion-strip jitters, no lateral wango-tango over broken pavement, less suspension-borne road noise. Yet even with the far cushier ride, handling has improved. Not even the most recent independent-rear-suspension SVT Cobra can match the new GT's skidpad grip, which now also surpasses a Nissan 350Z Touring's, come to think of it."

From Tony Swan of C&D, on the 05 GT:
"It's hard to attain roll stiffness and still keep the tires in constant contact with the pavement using this time-honored (read "neolithic") technique. Nevertheless, the GT exhibits a blend of compliance and response worthy of a BMW. Nice job, guys."

From MT on the 05 GT:
"All that said, the new car felt quicker and easier to pilot smoothly around the track than its glue-factory-bound predecessor, and most of these issues fade in importance once you drive off the track."

(from the same article)
"After just a few Michigan potholes, one wonders if Ford's modest structural improvement figures are overly conservative. The body feels snare-drum tight, attenuating impacts instantly. The extra rigidity coupled with the revised suspension allowed Ford to tighten up the shock valving and roll control without ruining the ride, which is slightly busy but never uncomfortably harsh."


It seems like one of you guys is comparing the early s197 with newer mustangs and the other guy just doesn't want to believe that his SN95 is outclassed in every way compared with even an early s197.

If I'm building a track car (road course), I'm picking the best chassis I can as the basis--there's no doubt that the s197 is the better choice vs the SN95. And with regard to ride and interior design, back in 2005 when it was first released, there is no doubt that the s197 is superior to the ancient SN95 on both counts.
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I went from a 2000 GT to a 2013 5.0 and can attest to the suspension improvements.

I agree that the S197 feels bigger. Part of that is the hood feels like it covers about a quarter of an acre. It just has that great feel of the classic long-hood short-deck stance, if you like that sort of thing. You have the feel of a much more massive car out in front of you than with the SN-95. And when you look at the positioning of the front wheels relative to the SN-95, you can see it's no illusion.

But it does not feel bigger in a bad way. I threw weld-in subframe connectors on my 2000 to make it less flexible and it handled fairly well. But the S197 is worlds apart. I could not believe how much of a revelation the improvement in the chassis was, even just in driving down the Interstate. Beyond the arguments for an independent rear suspension, it really needs nothing IMO.

I love them both. But the S197 is definitely a tighter, if heavier, platform.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexArmageddon View Post
Dude, you could have swapped a coyote into a sn95 or fox and would have been faster. You could have built, forged, and boosted a 1st gen s197 or any previous model mustang a..you would have came out lighter and faster... but you chose to go heavy with the 11+ gt... am I the only one who finds it laughable you all are complaining?

I guess they should have scaled down the s197 too right? Can't believe you people are so up in arms over what 86lbs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstFord94 View Post
I don't care so much with the weight (the z28 is a porker, but handles amazingly well). But I think it's funny that you think the SN95 is worth mentioning here. Who wants a car that rides like an oxcart, a fisher price interior, and perhaps most importantly, a 20 yo swiss cheese chassis?

Not all of us like mustangs for the their straightline speed. I like road course work and I'd take an s197+ all day long. Once you add up all the necessary bracing, you're sn95 ain't that light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexArmageddon View Post
And the s197 didn't handle like an oxcart and have fisher price interior? Lol sn95 came in mid 3200 lbs with an iron motor... even with all the reinforcements the coyote based s197 is still going to weigh more than the sn95. The expectations you all are setting for the mustang are downright unrealistic.
Yep the early s197's did. The later s197's did not-and they look good too!

Any American car built before the mid 2000's either a) handled like an oxcart or B) had a Fisher-Price interior or c) in most cases both.

If they didn't, there wouldn't be more Koreurojapanese cars on our highways than American cars. Go into any parking lot and count just one row of cars and you'll see what I mean.

Still I understand exactly why everyone is all up in arms about the weight. Thats because Ford was leaking, though the media, as late as mid 2013 that the s550 was going to LOSE weight-depending on which article one read-as much as 200 lbs.

The car came out and it got heavier. It could have only been 5 lbs, it came out heavier. If no one had mentioned anything about losing weight, I don't think too many people (maybe a few) would be whining about the weight gain.

Shoot even within the s197 generation the Mustang gained weight throughout its run. My brother's 2006 GT Premium weighed 3488 lbs. My 2014 GT Premium weighs 3618 lbs (both curb weights googled via Edmunds). Nobody complained because Ford also substantially bumped the horsepower up from 300-420 during that period. Thats 11.6 lbs/hp in 2006 and 8.6 lbs/hp for the 2014.

Enter the 2015. All the speculation (not necessarily Ford's fault) was up to 200 lbs less and maybe 450hp in GT form which had people salivating for what could be.

Instead we got a car that came in at 3705 lbs and 435 hp, or 8.5 lbs/hp. Not bad, just not what we were hoping for. Couple that with the drive-line losses through IRS and the drag racing community is losing its collective mind over this.

And then you add the looks-the subjective part, well we have a bunch of people that are not happy.

Ford is betting that more people will be happy than unhappy, and I guess in the end they will be right. They are betting that a large number of those aforementioned Koreurojapenese owners in that hypothetical parking lot will be driving over to a Ford dealership eventually to pick up a Mustang, or maybe just to look at a Mustang and end up getting a Fusion or a Focus instead of that next Accord or Camry.

But don't be surprised that the Mustang loyalists are on the feeling betrayed list.

I mean, Ford's not worried about us. Those of us who drove and worshiped those Fisher Price looking, truck motored Fox's
will eventually come around and get another Mustang because for the most of us, that's what we do. Ford knows that some will draw a line in the sand and go elsewhere but they are betting that that number will be relatively small.


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I don't know. Every car brand had crap interiors back in the early 2000's. Japanese and German. Times sure have changed very much.

To be fair, the early S197 interior was on par for many cars of that generation.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radioguy View Post
And it looks like the Camaro designers "get it." Stiffer and lighter.....sounds like the right formula!
2016 Chevrolet Camaro Spied with Far Less Camouflage – News – Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
Looks like a Fusion.

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Looks like a Fusion.
Whatcha talkin bout willis.. That has Scion TC all over it..

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