Motor Trend--15 Camaro 1LE PP vs 15 Mustang GT PP--Randy Pobst - Page 5 - Ford Mustang Forum
 
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After looking closely the new ones seem to almost be lower in the rear and the tires are closer to the fenders


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T... If Ford was going to offer a performance package, track pack, whatever you want to call it, it should have had even wider tires and wheels and much more suspension stiffness. Before the 15' I don't think the track pack even got bigger wheels and tires vs the brembro cars or better shocks but I could be wrong...
The Brembo cars were the sort of Track or Performance package cars of their day, specifically built slightly less than the BOSS. As such they got a just slightly stiffer suspension and slightly wider tires (255s versus 245) over the plain GTs. (GT/CS had 245s on 19" rims). The performance pack 2015s seem to have even wider 265 on the tires, but I am unsure if they stiffened the suspension any.

But, I do agree with your overall assessment, Ford left too much on the table, maybe because there will not be much difference in the GT350 suspension wise or they were still refining the GT350 and did not want a plain GT to get too close in performance.

GM has the advantage of having already produced the ZL1, Z/28 and 1LE and can refine each in its own niche area while not offending the higher priced cars.

Randy does comment these are daily driver street cars as opposed to track machines. Even guys who own BOSS and Z/28s comment they are (at times) unhappy with them as daily drivers.

I am not trying to excuse a failure to perform on Fords part. They took it in the shorts and should be embarrassed. A 2 second loss at Willow Springs is a 2 second loss. But, at least for me, I am not buying a Camaro.


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Two seconds is one set of tires away. You desk jockeys just don't have enough experience to know that.

Alex
2010 GTRR in 5.0 Magazine [http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/m5lp-1212-2010-ford-mustang-gt-rr-total-fabrication/viewall.html]

2015 White SC, PP, etc....

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Two seconds is one set of tires away. You desk jockeys just don't have enough experience to know that.
Yes different tires can improve track times but the point of a comparison is stock for stock. Once you start saying ,"well if only the car had _______ " the comparison test with objective data becomes bench racing.

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I just feel like adding in that the 1LE is riding on the same suspension as the ZL1. Its basically a ZL1 with less power. Tires help in corning but they aren't going to make up 2 seconds in that comparison. Personally I track and daily drive my Mustang and while its awesome to have great handling on the track I do like having a good ride on a normal road. I have sat in a few Camaros though and still don't like the fact I can see crap out of them and I don't care for the interior.
And Car & Driver agrees with you :
"Not A Pretty Cabin With the exception of the $1995 Recaro seats and the material covering the steering wheel and shifter, the rest of the Camaro interior reminds us of the General Motors that went bankrupt. If it weren’t for the interior, nothing about the 1LE would feel cheap.
And yet, we’d be willing to overlook the interior and the lack of outward visibility to park a Camaro SS 1LE in the garage."

C&D are very high on the Camaro SS 1LE performance, but don't like the interior or the visibility.

2015 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE Test – Review – Car and Driver

There is no doubt that FORD could engineer the "track pack Mustang" to be every bit as good as the Camaro SS 1LE. I suspect their marketing data has told them that something else is preferred by the biggest group of their "performance buying" customers. Pobst describes the track pack performance as "floaty" with springs and dampers that are still too soft - and he is an expert at analyzing the performance of a car on the track. I'm sure the FORD engineers knew just what they were getting with the springs and dampers they chose for the special package.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by 908ssp View Post
Two seconds is one set of tires away. You desk jockeys just don't have enough experience to know that.
Maybe, but my desk cruises at 30,000' at over 1/2 the speed of sound.

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Quote:
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The Brembo cars were the sort of Track or Performance package cars of their day, specifically built slightly less than the BOSS. As such they got a just slightly stiffer suspension and slightly wider tires (255s versus 245) over the plain GTs. (GT/CS had 245s on 19" rims). The performance pack 2015s seem to have even wider 265 on the tires, but I am unsure if they stiffened the suspension any.

But, I do agree with your overall assessment, Ford left too much on the table, maybe because there will not be much difference in the GT350 suspension wise or they were still refining the GT350 and did not want a plain GT to get too close in performance.

GM has the advantage of having already produced the ZL1, Z/28 and 1LE and can refine each in its own niche area while not offending the higher priced cars.

Randy does comment these are daily driver street cars as opposed to track machines. Even guys who own BOSS and Z/28s comment they are (at times) unhappy with them as daily drivers.

I am not trying to excuse a failure to perform on Fords part. They took it in the shorts and should be embarrassed. A 2 second loss at Willow Springs is a 2 second loss. But, at least for me, I am not buying a Camaro.

I am with you . I will admit at first I was a little butt hurt about the loss though lol. Reason being is just the way Ford set expectations. Maybe I just read into it wrong but I was at first expecting a 200lb lighter car, then got dissapointed when it was heavier (big let down) and hoping for 50hp more (lofty goal I know) and now you have a fun car for not a lot of money overall that would be a BIG improvement in performance so I was hoping to whoop that Camaros butt on the track! All that being said I am over the loss on the track and actually like the car overall. If you look at the numbers they did improve the track times quiet a bit really. I will also admit the Camaro is a mean looking car, more tough looking than a Mustang in a way but I too am not going anywhere and just gonna keep my 12 w the mods I've done for now. On a final thought, at least it beat it in a drag race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radioguy View Post
And Car & Driver agrees with you :
"Not A Pretty Cabin With the exception of the $1995 Recaro seats and the material covering the steering wheel and shifter, the rest of the Camaro interior reminds us of the General Motors that went bankrupt. If it weren’t for the interior, nothing about the 1LE would feel cheap.
And yet, we’d be willing to overlook the interior and the lack of outward visibility to park a Camaro SS 1LE in the garage."

C&D are very high on the Camaro SS 1LE performance, but don't like the interior or the visibility.

2015 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE Test – Review – Car and Driver

There is no doubt that FORD could engineer the "track pack Mustang" to be every bit as good as the Camaro SS 1LE. I suspect their marketing data has told them that something else is preferred by the biggest group of their "performance buying" customers. Pobst describes the track pack performance as "floaty" with springs and dampers that are still too soft - and he is an expert at analyzing the performance of a car on the track. I'm sure the FORD engineers knew just what they were getting with the springs and dampers they chose for the special package.


I would totally agree with you on the looks of the inside of the Govt Motors Camaro. I was meh on the outside of it at first, sat in one and did not like the guages or the views from the drivers seat. I did not drive it b/c it was a friends car and I just sat in it but at that time I had a GTO. When I saw the Mustang I knew it was for me over the Camaro. However the first ZL1 I saw I was like WOW that thing is bad arsh and forgot about how bad I didn't like the interior lol.

You are probably right about the suspension b/c they obviously didn't do much to stiffen it up a lot other than "heavy duty springs" whatever that means. The good news is I bet w some lowering springs and some koni yellows it would drive like a dream around the track if that's what we wanted. I'm sure there will be more to come and that's whats exciting about being a car guy

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Maybe, but my desk cruises at 30,000' at over 1/2 the speed of sound.
It is not how fast you go it is how fast you feel. The fastest and scariest is motocross bike in the woods HSB.

The tire on the LE1 are over an 1.5" wider in the front, hell their front tires are wider than the rear tires on the PP car. In almost every other objective measure the Mustang is as fast or faster. The Camaro goes down in a buff of smoke with the right tires on the Mustang.

Alex
2010 GTRR in 5.0 Magazine [http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/m5lp-1212-2010-ford-mustang-gt-rr-total-fabrication/viewall.html]

2015 White SC, PP, etc....

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It is not how fast you go it is how fast you feel. The fastest and scariest is motocross bike in the woods HSB.

The tire on the LE1 are over an 1.5" wider in the front, hell their front tires are wider than the rear tires on the PP car. In almost every other objective measure the Mustang is as fast or faster. The Camaro goes down in a buff of smoke with the right tires on the Mustang.
And maybe if the Challenger had wider tires it would beat both the Camaro and the Mustang but I don't think so Something about "body roll," and outside tire workload vs. capability ... etc.

TOTD: Ford Mustang GT, Camaro SS 1LE, or Challenger R/T Scat Pack?
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Quote:
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It is not how fast you go it is how fast you feel. The fastest and scariest is motocross bike in the woods HSB...
You are not talking speed now but adrenaline factor. Try 10' off the deck at over 160 on NVGs. Advantage of having both airplanes and helicopters on my certificates and over 22 years of flying for Uncle Sugar.

Controlling a machine is controlling a machine. You may a niche' in which you operate but it does not give you the right to call everyone else clueless desk jockeys. There is always someone who has been faster, higher or further or had a higher adrenaline rush.

I don't care about what tires could have been put on the 2015 so much as how the car performs off the lot. You can always start throwing money and end up in a never ending back and forth. The leveling point is stock off the lot.

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Quote:
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Controlling a machine is controlling a machine. You may a niche' in which you operate but it does not give you the right to call everyone else clueless desk jockeys. There is always someone who has been faster, higher or further or had a higher adrenaline rush.

I don't care about what tires could have been put on the 2015 so much as how the car performs off the lot. You can always start throwing money and end up in a never ending back and forth. The leveling point is stock off the lot.
+1. Thank You!

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The LE1 and the PP just aren't meant to attract the same buyer. With the tires on the LE1 you will lucky to last 10k and are dangerous under 40 degress. Is that what Ford should have put on the PP? I bet Ford's PP outsells the LE1 4 to 1. Ford took the obviuos choice after all they are in business to sell cars not impress magazine writers and web site critics.

Alex
2010 GTRR in 5.0 Magazine [http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/m5lp-1212-2010-ford-mustang-gt-rr-total-fabrication/viewall.html]

2015 White SC, PP, etc....

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post #73 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-03-2014 Thread Starter
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The following article speaks for itself....

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' still alive and well for Chevrolet.

'Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' still alive and well for Chevrolet | FOX Sports

Jedi D.

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The following article speaks for itself....

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' still alive and well for Chevrolet.

'Win on Sunday, sell on Monday' still alive and well for Chevrolet | FOX Sports

Jedi D.
Interesting perspective. I also noticed that Dodge has aimed their advertising at "performance and fun."

NEW! Dodge Brothers' Car Chase Spans 100 Years 10/24/2014

FORD seems to be using words like "sophisticated" and "better ride" in their ads and the writer's reviews. More of an "AUDI" kind of aim Would be "consistent" with a softer "performance pack" suspension....IMHO


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Quote:
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The LE1 and the PP just aren't meant to attract the same buyer. With the tires on the LE1 you will lucky to last 10k and are dangerous under 40 degress. Is that what Ford should have put on the PP? I bet Ford's PP outsells the LE1 4 to 1. Ford took the obviuos choice after all they are in business to sell cars not impress magazine writers and web site critics.
The Brembo package did come with Pirellis that were next to worthless on sub-45 degree days. I'm fairly certain the same/similar tires were put on the TP and PP cars.

The biggest advantage the Camaro had was the suspension. Chevy put on all the right parts. Ever notice the first Mustang mods are tune, springs/shocks? There's a reason. Ford went too soft on the suspension. Especially on the Brembo, TP and PP cars.

As for the 1LE and PP not targeting the same buyer, both packages are for the occasional trackday/autocross driver. Chevy just did a better job of it. As for, "just wait until the .... Mustang comes out", sorry guys we need to admit it, Chevy beat us on this one.

Now after saying that, the Chevy owners still have to look at that hideous dashboard and control layout. That was one of several reasons I didn't get a Camaro. The other was the ridiculously huge "wagon wheels" they put on the car. I can barely tolerate the 19's on my Mustang.


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