basic road racing s197 - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 3 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
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basic road racing s197

I just thought that I'd pass this along. this is the Boss 302 that we run in PWC and IMSA, once the cars are stripped out and the cage is installed our cars weight around 3700 pounds, so they are pretty heavy. What we do..within the rules, we are allowed to change the upper trailing arm to an adjustable one, change the lower trailing arm adjustment points, this allows for a corrected pinion angle after lowering. The car has to be at least 4 inches off the ground, our cars are usually more. With regards to the front suspension we are limited to camber of around 4 degrees. The in general go to setup for most places is a 300 pound spring in the rear, about a 600 up front, the Ford Performance adjustable "blue" bar in the front and an 18mm or no bar in the rear. all of this rides on hi zoot Penske coilovers, but there are less expensive alternatives. We also use tire pressure as part of the spring rate scheme.
You need to throw out what you think you know about suspensions and sway bars, these cars really need to move weight around in order to handle and not punish the tires, here's an example of a car that set on the pole at the VIR 24 hour race, it led until the clutch destroyed itself, it was up against Porsches, Astins and BMWs.. This car runs lot's of aero, but on a 30 mph corner, it's all mechanical grip, aero really does not come into play in a serious manner until about 50 mph.





the IMSA car, that didn't have large aero, also ran a very soft suspension



Another modification that you will eventually need to do if you track the car, is to cut the shock tower to allow for more camber, the mustangs love camber. You will see that there is no shock tower brace, we don't use one, the cars are all seam welded and are very stiff. The roll cage helps, but we are not allowed to go forward of the firewall, or behind the rear suspension mounts in these cars.



With regards to aero, you basically have 2 choices, the IMSA package, or the PWC (big wing) package, both of these cars have been in the wind tunnel, what you CANNOT do is mix and match the splitter/wing packages. you get one, or the other, to mix them will throw the car off horribly, we tried removing the rear wing at Daytona to find some speed and it really didn't work out because we lost so much time in the bus stop.

One thing else that I would recommend besides the matching aero is to run suspension components from a single manufacturer, normally, we use Ford Performance because they sell their stuff in a "kit" form that is designed to work together, we don't use rear trailing arm location brackets but we do use an adjustable upper trailing arm that is not Ford sourced, the car is remarkably stock underneath, except for the coil overs .For the street, I would recommend against coil overs, good one will cost north of $5K and will need to be rebuilt every 20K miles, our Penskes are $10K for comparison. For the 99.9% of us we will never be able to fully utilize the adjustments to the coilovers although they do make it easy to change ride height. FR kit's can be ordered with adjustable shocks and struts that come with separate springs, for a street car this is a bunch more user friendly.
This is the Ford Performance track pack and is the exact basis for what we use on the competition cars. In some SCCA classes, we cannot use coil overs because of class rules, so this is the EXACT parts that we use for those cars.



I hope this helps you out on your crusade for better handling, remember, in these cars unless you have virtually unlimited tire rules, weight transfer is your friend, even though you may have been told differently over the years.



This car was the runoffs winner in 2018, barely beating the BMW, which finished on it's bumper, in 2019, the roles were reversed and the car finished in second spot, but it wasn't for lack of trying, the Mustangs have to run a tiny 275 tire with the stick axle so the BMWs definitely have an advantage. This is all Ford suspension track pack with coil overs.





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Last edited by blacksheep-1; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:45 PM.
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 3 Weeks Ago
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thanks for posting . . . apparently the photos are not showing up


| 2010 GT coupe | Daily Driver with some Steeda and GT500 take-off stuff for the occasional track day
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This is my NASA TT S197, that's been setup by Paul's Automotive Engineering in Cincinnati, OH (my major sponsor). The aero (splitter, wing, diffuser) is new as of 2019, up till then, we concentrated on weight reduction, suspension and balance. Placed in top 10 at 2019 NASA Nationals at Mid Ohio (my home track).
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IF MY CAR WENT AS FAST AS THE MONEY I SPEND ON IT, I'D WIN EVERY RACE
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I am at the point with my car, where I can't decide whether to go in deeper -- meaning, make it more of a track and less of a street car -- or stop where I am. It's fun for HPDE's but not going to be competitive in any real competition. Might try another SCCA Time Trial this year, did one last year and it was fun . . . but there was a fully track prepped 2008? GT in my class that was a full 8 seconds faster than me (1:22 vs 1:30). yes I know it is not just the car, it's the driver too . . . but . . .

I guess my big concern at this point is safety equipment -- before I start really pushing the limits, I really should have at least a roll bar, harness, and HANS device, which starts getting expensive; and once the car has a roll bar in it, it really isn't a street car any more.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 3 Weeks Ago Thread Starter
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true to a point, most places will require a HANs if you take out the stock seatbelts with the inertia reels in them, it makes sense, a harness has no "give" to it that would save your neck.
Right now, the T3 class is a pretty good class to run, basically a stock 3 valve with a cage and a fire system. you might look into that.
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How about now?
I have no idea why they aren't showing they are right off of IMGUR
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Photos are still not showing up; just some strange little icon, not sure what is the issue.

Yep, the SCCA Time Trials rules put me in T3 (Tuner 3) because I have Steeda heavy duty strut mounts, which are adjustable about a degree or so. This puts me in the same class with highly modified Mustangs, including 2011-2014 cars which are up 100 HP on me, and cars with super-sticky tires running 4 degrees of camber, etc . . . that is a little discouraging since there is no way my car will be competitive the way it is.

I guess the good news is, I can just have fun, no pressure!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksheep-1 View Post
How about now?
I have no idea why they aren't showing they are right off of IMGUR
I think imgur has been limiting certain aspects of their image hosting - another forum I belong to opened up their own their-site-only image hosting as a result.

Let me try something . . . OK, it seems to work . . . best to right-click and open each one in its own new tab to get full size images. I think they're in the same order reading left to right on each line.


Norm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBert View Post
Yep, the SCCA Time Trials rules put me in T3 (Tuner 3) because I have Steeda heavy duty strut mounts, which are adjustable about a degree or so. This puts me in the same class with highly modified Mustangs, including 2011-2014 cars which are up 100 HP on me, and cars with super-sticky tires running 4 degrees of camber, etc . . . that is a little discouraging since there is no way my car will be competitive the way it is.

I guess the good news is, I can just have fun, no pressure!
Other than the power, how much room do you have left on everything else?


FWIW, I wasn't even getting the strange icon, only blank places where they should have been.


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'19 WRX, 6M (hers)
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Other than the power, how much room do you have left on everything else? . . .
Driver -- LOTS! I know I need a lot more track time; right now I am acutely aware that I don't really know when I am approaching the limit, and my reaction time was not the greatest when I was younger and not getting any better, at 59 now. So after track time, safety equipment is probably where I should spend my money first.

Car -- there is a lot of room left in the T3 rules also. I am running 275 MPSS tires on 9.5" GT500 wheels; T3 allows 200 trade wear (read: RE-71R's) with 285 tread width maximum, and ultra-lightweight wheels (Forgestar F14's?) are allowed. 305 or 315 tires moves me up to T2. Camber plates are allowed as are shock/spring changes; I am looking at Vorschlag's "sport kit" which includes their caster/camber mounts and Bilsteins with Eibach springs. I have already done the front bushings, have real LCA's and relocation brackets sitting on bench. I already have the 14" brembo brakes; cooling ducts are allowed and on To Do list.

Rules also allow engine mods like headers, but i don't think I want to spend the time and money for that.

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Driver -- LOTS! I know I need a lot more track time; right now I am acutely aware that I don't really know when I am approaching the limit, and my reaction time was not the greatest when I was younger and not getting any better, at 59 now. So after track time, safety equipment is probably where I should spend my money first.
I think the first comes with seat time, and autocrossing probably helps here because the speeds and risks are both much lower (making it easier to run harder, earlier). On the track, you probably make more progress bunching up half a dozen track days into a couple of months time than you would by spreading the same number of events out over an entire season.

I hope Blacksheep chimes in on the matter of "reaction time", but I personally don't think reaction time means a whole lot as long as you're smooth at the controls until/unless the rear end starts to step out on you. This would be more of a consideration on track during a wet session or perhaps on a cold day during the first two or three laps. That said, it does take more to push your limits at 100 mph than at 55.



Quote:
Car -- there is a lot of room left in the T3 rules also. I am running 275 MPSS tires on 9.5" GT500 wheels; T3 allows 200 trade wear (read: RE-71R's) with 285 tread width maximum, and ultra-lightweight wheels (Forgestar F14's?) are allowed. 305 or 315 tires moves me up to T2. Camber plates are allowed as are shock/spring changes; I am looking at Vorschlag's "sport kit" which includes their caster/camber mounts and Bilsteins with Eibach springs. I have already done the front bushings, have real LCA's and relocation brackets sitting on bench. I already have the 14" brembo brakes; cooling ducts are allowed and on To Do list.

Rules also allow engine mods like headers, but i don't think I want to spend the time and money for that.
Assuming that '285' is the nominal size rather than any sort of actual measurement, I think you may want 285/35's on 18x11's - although 275/35's are also OK'ed for 11" wide wheels. They're still within T&RA fitment guidelines, so you shouldn't get any push-back from your tire guy about either combination even though they will look slightly 'stretched' (likely a good thing here, anyway).


Norm

'08 GT coupe, 5M, wheels, tires, pads, fluid, a few suspension mods . . . still almost stock height
'19 WRX, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)
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I think imgur has been limiting certain aspects of their image hosting - another forum I belong to opened up their own their-site-only image hosting as a result.


Norm
I know race cars are not suppose to be "pretty"..... but she is really pretty....and the amount of "tire bite & bark" raising that front tire... that is impressive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm showing my age now, but back in the days, ran a little scca in SoCal.....
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...and the amount of "tire bite & bark" raising that front tire... that is impressive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . . .
..
yep, good demonstration of why a lot of negative camber is so important, and why the camber in the wrong direction on the inside tire doesn't matter

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I think that's more of a function of the castor increase and the point of view of the camera, FWIW, Vorschlage and Phoenix are pretty much at complete odds on car setup. Not going to bad mouth anyone, but the difference seems to be that in SCCA limited prep classes they are tire limited where in the Optimum series you can pretty much run any width you want.
So if you are serious about T3 (SCCA) IMO you'd prolly be better off with the Phoenix stuff, which is Ford Performance with coilovers.
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Driver -- LOTS! I know I need a lot more track time; right now I am acutely aware that I don't really know when I am approaching the limit, and my reaction time was not the greatest when I was younger and not getting any better, at 59 now. So after track time, safety equipment is probably where I should spend my money first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
I hope Blacksheep chimes in on the matter of "reaction time", but I personally don't think reaction time means a whole lot as long as you're smooth at the controls until/unless the rear end starts to step out on you. This would be more of a consideration on track during a wet session or perhaps on a cold day during the first two or three laps. That said, it does take more to push your limits at 100 mph than at 55.
Safety equipment needs to be seriously considered, even in the HPDE Levels, IMO. I know its costly and difficult to do since most HPDE cars are also street, daily drivers, but....the alternative is more costly. Reaction Time: for me comes with more track time. I consider reaction time as being able to hit my braking and turn in marks/apex consistently and that takes practice, practice, practice. Before the Nationals last year I hit a lot of track time at Mid Ohio, back to back weekends at times and the results showed it paid off. Its like anything, the more you do it, the better you'll get. Its taken me 12 years to get the car to where its at, so its not a quick process. And I'm fortunate to have hooked up with PAE in 2010, their experience and background in road racing and building/setting up road race cars is amazing.

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IF MY CAR WENT AS FAST AS THE MONEY I SPEND ON IT, I'D WIN EVERY RACE

Last edited by pikapp; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:04 PM.
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