Whats the best side exhaust kit to use? - Ford Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006 Thread Starter
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Question Whats the best side exhaust kit to use?

EDIT: I saw the thread below so Ill change my quetion. Whats the best side exhaust kit to use?

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006
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More info

What model, year and style Mustang do you have?

In general terms, it is a bad idea, for instance, to install a side exhaust on a convertible (body flexes too much, and you need to be adding subframe connectors instead of side exhausts).


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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006 Thread Starter
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Its a 2000 V6 hard top. But I also considered removing my motoblue pulleys and putting the stock back on so I can use a supercharger. I dont want to because I like the look of them. Should I?
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006
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Dis-modding

This is a dark secrete among mods: Many modifications conflict with later mods. EBay earns many extra dollars due to this!

Your underdrive pulleys will never generate the power of a blower, so the decision is one that starts with that question: Do you want more power? One thing you might consider would be a turbo rig, which would cost more but not require removing your pulleys. Turbos generate more power than the sc's. You can check which companies make good kits for your car (Hellion would be my choice, or HP, maybe Turbonetics).



Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous36
Its a 2000 V6 hard top. But I also considered removing my motoblue pulleys and putting the stock back on so I can use a supercharger. I dont want to because I like the look of them. Should I?

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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006 Thread Starter
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Yeah turbos would be nice. I thought of those too. But dont want lag and I would have to drill the oil pan. I know you have to do that with SCs too but not the ATI SC. Its self contained. I would just hate to loose my cold air intake, motoblue pulleys, and possibly my diablosport program to the superchager. Atleast I could keep the BBK strut brace. Although it does get in the way of once easy to reach spots. I plan to get good use out CAI & pulley set before removing. What should I or what wold you do?

Also the space under the hood is tight, add to that the strut brace, and the new problem of getting air to the turbos which means two new seperate intakes on both sides of the motor (time money and custom fabing).
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006
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Kits

No doubt turbos can be more labor to install. Cost is roughly a third more than, say, a good centrifugal unit (all but the PowerCharger/ATI sc's will require taping oil out of the pan, just like turbos). Power is about double, and lots of the extra cost are for things like tubular k members, headers, and coil overs, which have a value in and of themselves. Custom fabbing is pretty much a thing of the past - modern kits have all the pieces, its mainly a bolt on affair, though lots MORE bolts than the typical supercharger. You might check out www.modularpowerhouse.com. They list a very complete Twin Turbo install at $9300. A similar VorTech install (with intercooler, headers, tubular K member, tubular A members, etc.) would run about $6400. A 2.2 Kenne Bell will set you back about $7200 installed with comparable parts list.

Most centrifugal units really need an intercooler to work best, and a gear swap to get them into their sweet spot on the power curve. Superchargers in general also put added stress on the crank, take horsepower from the motor to create boost, and centrifubal superchargers have their own lag problems which are very similar to properly sized turbochargers.

You avoid lag problems with either an eaton or twin screw (kenne bell) positive displacement blower, but they cost almost as much as the turbos (though they are a much easier install). Great low end torque - not near the top end horsepower of the turbos. Some companys, by the way, offer single turbo kits that are closer in price to the Keene Bell items.

Strut braces (I have a steeda item on my GT) can be clearance problems for superchargers and turbos, though some quick measurements before installation might save some problems later.

If you go with a supercharger or turbo, you will likely have to remove the CAI and see what it will bring second hand. Your pulleys will be ok with the turbo, NOT with any of the superchargers. Your tune will need updating, but there's a good chance that you can get a new download for your diablo rather than have to buy another one.

Assuming you have the normal space under your hood as a 99-04, you have plenty of space for whatever you want to do - the gap between the waterpump and the radiator can hold virtually any centrifugal sc or turbo you might want to run. Some kits require relocating the batter to the trunk (again, a move that has advantages of its own), though many do not. Some folks are using the space gained from doing this to install methanol injection (or coolers, depending on application) that helps lower intake temps and add power (Anderson Ford makes a good one).

Unfortunately, staying n.a. with these cars is just about as expensive as installing a power-adder, without the fun factor and with less power gain.

If you've driven an 03-04 terminator and fallen in love with the low end torque, consider a Kenne Bell (1.7 unless you are really ambitious, then check out the 2.2). No lag time, no waiting.

For a long time, that was my personal plan - until I drove a car with the twin turbo rig. 700 rwhp will make you change your religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous36
Yeah turbos would be nice. I thought of those too. But dont want lag and I would have to drill the oil pan. I know you have to do that with SCs too but not the ATI SC. Its self contained. I would just hate to loose my cold air intake, motoblue pulleys, and possibly my diablosport program to the superchager. Atleast I could keep the BBK strut brace. Although it does get in the way of once easy to reach spots. I plan to get good use out CAI & pulley set before removing. What should I or what wold you do?

Also the space under the hood is tight, add to that the strut brace, and the new problem of getting air to the turbos which means two new seperate intakes on both sides of the motor (time money and custom fabing).

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006 Thread Starter
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Thanks for the all the tips and help youve been giving. I decided not to get a centrifigal SC anymore. While browsing the web I discovered a roots blower and twin screw SC in development for the V6. Ironically they recommend you have underdrive pulleys to safely generate 8 psi of boost without overboosting and destroying the engine with normal sized pulleys. It will sell for under 3000. Like you said it will be easier to install than a Cen SC or TT kit and best of all no lag. I will need new injectors which may be included in the kit but sadly I may have to dump the Diablo sport tune b/c it comes with a SCT chip. Its been in development for 2 years now and has come along nicely. The guys have damaged a few motors but not from SC kitbut from using used motors from wrecked cars. But you take a chance on used motors. You get what you pay for with things like that.
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-26-2006
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kits

Streetability on the twin screws is probably the best of any power adder (there's a reason OE manufacturers pick positive displacement blowers and turbos for original equipment on performance cars).

Knowing you have a V6 (add info like this to your sig - it makes things easier), narrows your options somewhat. Post the details on the blowers on the V6 site - lots of folks will be interested.

I wonder what size serpentine belt they are contemplating? Usually, the belt MUST be the right size, esle you get some nasty problems with slippage, and aftermarket underdrive pulley sets often vary widely in the sizes of the pulley.

The price looks right (but I wager it doesn't include an intercooler at that price, nor does it necessarily have to have one with only 8psi of boost).

The kit SHOULD include injectors (though some don't). You can sell the Diablo unit for good money - be sure to put it back to original before you pull the plug. Nothing wrong with SCT - they still dominate the dyno market, though some folks are switching to Diablo.

As for damaging used cars, r & d SHOULD push the limits, but NOT when it comes to when you start selling to us consumers. Check the literature - most supercharged motors that fail do so because of poor tunes. Detonation kills. Its usually NOT the lack of forged internals or age of the motor, but the lack of a good tune!

You should know going in that you will encounter MANY opportunities to buy smaller blower pulleys (or larger crank pulleys, of both) to get "more". So long as you don't mind replacing motors, you can start your very own r&d effort, but I don't advise it...

I was at a recent show where a well-healed Cobra owner was belly-aching about his car eating up serpentine belts. I took one look at his car and saw that he had swapped to a 2.4 KB unit (nice unit of course), but was running a VERY TINY blower pulley. I asked him how much power he had, and he scowled and said "only 690 rwhp, and with that custom made pulley it should be more, and then the serpentine snakes off the thing and gets all wound up in the works"! He was convinced that the kb was a "piece of junk" and that he had wasted his money. I suggested he go back to the standard pulley size that came with the kb, and he looked at me like I was crazy. "That thing was no good - the most power it would make was about 600rwhp."

No duh.

By now he's doubtless trashed the cobra motor, still convinced that Ford and Kenne Bell are to blame, not him and the fly-by-night machine shop in Florida that sold him a micro-sized pulley.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous36
Thanks for the all the tips and help youve been giving. I decided not to get a centrifigal SC anymore. While browsing the web I discovered a roots blower and twin screw SC in development for the V6. Ironically they recommend you have underdrive pulleys to safely generate 8 psi of boost without overboosting and destroying the engine with normal sized pulleys. It will sell for under 3000. Like you said it will be easier to install than a Cen SC or TT kit and best of all no lag. I will need new injectors which may be included in the kit but sadly I may have to dump the Diablo sport tune b/c it comes with a SCT chip. Its been in development for 2 years now and has come along nicely. The guys have damaged a few motors but not from SC kitbut from using used motors from wrecked cars. But you take a chance on used motors. You get what you pay for with things like that.

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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-26-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleblack
No doubt turbos can be more labor to install. Cost is roughly a third more than, say, a good centrifugal unit (all but the PowerCharger/ATI sc's will require taping oil out of the pan, just like turbos). Power is about double, and lots of the extra cost are for things like tubular k members, headers, and coil overs, which have a value in and of themselves. Custom fabbing is pretty much a thing of the past - modern kits have all the pieces, its mainly a bolt on affair, though lots MORE bolts than the typical supercharger. You might check out www.modularpowerhouse.com. They list a very complete Twin Turbo install at $9300. A similar VorTech install (with intercooler, headers, tubular K member, tubular A members, etc.) would run about $6400. A 2.2 Kenne Bell will set you back about $7200 installed with comparable parts list.

Most centrifugal units really need an intercooler to work best, and a gear swap to get them into their sweet spot on the power curve. Superchargers in general also put added stress on the crank, take horsepower from the motor to create boost, and centrifubal superchargers have their own lag problems which are very similar to properly sized turbochargers.

You avoid lag problems with either an eaton or twin screw (kenne bell) positive displacement blower, but they cost almost as much as the turbos (though they are a much easier install). Great low end torque - not near the top end horsepower of the turbos. Some companys, by the way, offer single turbo kits that are closer in price to the Keene Bell items.

Strut braces (I have a steeda item on my GT) can be clearance problems for superchargers and turbos, though some quick measurements before installation might save some problems later.

If you go with a supercharger or turbo, you will likely have to remove the CAI and see what it will bring second hand. Your pulleys will be ok with the turbo, NOT with any of the superchargers. Your tune will need updating, but there's a good chance that you can get a new download for your diablo rather than have to buy another one.

Assuming you have the normal space under your hood as a 99-04, you have plenty of space for whatever you want to do - the gap between the waterpump and the radiator can hold virtually any centrifugal sc or turbo you might want to run. Some kits require relocating the batter to the trunk (again, a move that has advantages of its own), though many do not. Some folks are using the space gained from doing this to install methanol injection (or coolers, depending on application) that helps lower intake temps and add power (Anderson Ford makes a good one).

Unfortunately, staying n.a. with these cars is just about as expensive as installing a power-adder, without the fun factor and with less power gain.

If you've driven an 03-04 terminator and fallen in love with the low end torque, consider a Kenne Bell (1.7 unless you are really ambitious, then check out the 2.2). No lag time, no waiting.

For a long time, that was my personal plan - until I drove a car with the twin turbo rig. 700 rwhp will make you change your religion.
Kenne-Bells don't work with V6s, Only Eaton, and only with the T-bird SC heads.

There is little lag time with the good turbo or twin turbo kits, but they are quite expensive, and unless you have a pretty stout bottom end, tend to do nasty things to the bottom end, unless boost is set to 7-9 psi.

Re: side exhaust, Roush makes a nice kit, also check out Spintechs with tthe Cobra R tips, also check out Borla.

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous36
Thanks for the all the tips and help youve been giving. I decided not to get a centrifigal SC anymore. While browsing the web I discovered a roots blower and twin screw SC in development for the V6. Ironically they recommend you have underdrive pulleys to safely generate 8 psi of boost without overboosting and destroying the engine with normal sized pulleys. It will sell for under 3000. Like you said it will be easier to install than a Cen SC or TT kit and best of all no lag. I will need new injectors which may be included in the kit but sadly I may have to dump the Diablo sport tune b/c it comes with a SCT chip. Its been in development for 2 years now and has come along nicely. The guys have damaged a few motors but not from SC kitbut from using used motors from wrecked cars. But you take a chance on used motors. You get what you pay for with things like that.
Make sure it's for the 3.8L v6 and not the 4.0L.

You can use your Diablo Chip, but you;ll have to get it reburned no matter what you do.

If you prefer Diablo, sell the SCT device on E-bay.

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-26-2006 Thread Starter
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I dont know where they are in the development phase now. From what I saw searching (and I searched all I could) there have not been any follow ups or updates since sometime last year. Maybe they abandoned it or decided to keep it hush hush until they release the final product to avoid all the questions. The two SCs will be a Eaton M90 (the roots blower) but not a used one pulled from a Tbird. It will be brand new in the kit with new injectors, fuel rail, carbon fiber intake, and other stuff. It will make around 8 to 9 psi of boost. Its the starters kit. Then there is the AR twin screw supercharger that makes 20 psi which is or was being made for the V6. Its more advanced for those ready to take it further and requires stronger engine internals to run it. Its similar to the Cobras M112 SC. There is still alot of info up in the air though. Knowing that there are diff sized UD pulleys I wondered how that would work out with the SC. They say you will have to tell them you applications and they would ship a kit based on your apps. So I guess the UD pulleys will be taken care of in that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous36
I dont know where they are in the development phase now. From what I saw searching (and I searched all I could) there have not been any follow ups or updates since sometime last year. Maybe they abandoned it or decided to keep it hush hush until they release the final product to avoid all the questions. The two SCs will be a Eaton M90 (the roots blower) but not a used one pulled from a Tbird. It will be brand new in the kit with new injectors, fuel rail, carbon fiber intake, and other stuff. It will make around 8 to 9 psi of boost. Its the starters kit. Then there is the AR twin screw supercharger that makes 20 psi which is or was being made for the V6. Its more advanced for those ready to take it further and requires stronger engine internals to run it. Its similar to the Cobras M112 SC. There is still alot of info up in the air though. Knowing that there are diff sized UD pulleys I wondered how that would work out with the SC. They say you will have to tell them you applications and they would ship a kit based on your apps. So I guess the UD pulleys will be taken care of in that.

Are they Magnums?

(filling in 20 char. limit)

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 06-26-2006 Thread Starter
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I dont know. If your talking about the twin screw SC. Its an Autorotor and from what I here they are also called whipples and kenne Bell so it has different names. I plan to post some links soon when I get the chance.
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http://www.magnumpowers.com/sc_idx.html

Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
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General data

Just mentioned the kb's (ok, I cut and pasted some generic boilerplate from my files) because he mentioned an "experimental" twin screw (no source listed). Generally, the kb's are considered good examples of twin screw blowers, and what goes for them might well equate to a V6 (they may not make a V6 kit, but I really don't know why not - their small 1.7 and earlier blowzilla items are no longer than a small M unit). Must be a problem with the intake.
Shame, really, with the numbers of 3.8's sold over the years. Odd that they don't see the market...

The turbos will usually run you at least 40% more than a basic sc install - though you often get headers and lots of others parts for that money. I looked into a kb for my GT, and after I added the Tubular K member, tubular A arms, headers and coil overs, it cost essentially the same as a turbo install. Makes sense, given the maxim that you "get what you pay for".

The rep for turbos being hard on bottom ends is a little dated. Tuning for a turbo (or a sc for that matter) has moved from a dark art to a commodity. Lots of the past history has more to do with lack of knowledge to tune these engines than any inherent problem with the concept. Bad tunes have destroyed more motors than any other problem source EXCEPT bad owners! Turbos in particular are prone to "lets tighten the wastegate down just a LITTLE bit more and see what happens". Blooee.

With sc's its "I know a guy who will sell us a pulley that will give us 300 more rwhp!" Blooee, again. I've argued with buddies in the throes of adding tiny pullies to their expensive cobra motors, then walked away rather than share in the inevitable disaster. I USUALLY made it to my car before loud noises and cursing announced the conclusion of the experiment...

All things in moderation. I've read the packages from a number of sc and turbo makers, and the one common thread is the part where "...tampering with the pulley size (or swapping to another type wastegate) WILL void your warranty."

The MMFF guys have been thrashing stock bottom end V8's (though I don't believe they are doing the same with the V6) for quite a while, and the consensus is that detonation and over-revving kill more motors than any other cause. Even stock bottom ends putting out "more hp than they should" rarely fail until either the tune gets out of wack, or some idiot defeats the rev limiter.

Keep it real (and within the specs of the unit) and you can get a good, long life out of either sc's or turbos. Properly fed turbos tend to exceed the horsepower production of sc's producing the same boost level, ie, the modest gains from an 8psi sc are often lower than those produced with an 8psi turbo. Its like comparing clockspeeds between computers - there is more to the overall real world speed of the computers than the clocking of the processors.

KS, weren't you considering such a sc install at one point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
Kenne-Bells don't work with V6s, Only Eaton, and only with the T-bird SC heads.

There is little lag time with the good turbo or twin turbo kits, but they are quite expensive, and unless you have a pretty stout bottom end, tend to do nasty things to the bottom end, unless boost is set to 7-9 psi.

Re: side exhaust, Roush makes a nice kit, also check out Spintechs with tthe Cobra R tips, also check out Borla.



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