[philly4lyfe]

1968 Fastback 351w Engine rebuild questions

I have a few questions about which direction to take my new project.

I am purchasing a 1968 fastback from a guy who is abandoning the project. I am looking for suggestion on which way to go for my power train.

First I'll give you some background. I have basic mechanical skill but no training. I have changed brakes, rotors and installed a cold air intake on my car but nothing major. I am willing to learn as I go and can dedicate some time but not a ton.

The car comes with a 1978 351 windsor. The guy says it is in working order but he planned to machine it to a 357 and rebuild it. It is already torn down to the block. It comes with GT40 heads as well. It is converted to a manual and already has a clutch cable.

Based on the research I've done, I planned on either mating it to a tko 500/600 or t56 if I can find one for a reasonable price.

I am a spirited driver and may take it to the track for fun but no drag racing. My other car has about 300 HP and based on that I probably want to be in the 350 range. I will use it as a weekend driver.

So my question is should I convert the 351 to a roller? How much would this rebuild plus transmission and adapters cost? Is it better to find a junked 2001+ GT and take the engine and 3650 tranny or t56 if I can find a Cobra as a setup? For me in order of importance are reliability, performance, fuel economy.

Thanks for your help.

 

[ronson]

hi what size is your 300 hp eng? . do you want bottomend power or a 7000 rpm eng? . how much money do you have for eng only you may need geang

 

[philly4lyfe]

hi what size is your 300 hp eng? . do you want bottomend power or a 7000 rpm eng? . how much money do you have for eng only you may need geang

My other car is a Honda accord HFP. It's stock 278 but I upgraded to a CAI and am pulling and extra 16 or so. It peaks around 5k rpm. This will be my first restoration.

I'm enjoy driving so having to shift often isn't a big deal for me. I don't plan on any long road trips but would like to keep my optins open. I'm thinking high end rpm power but I would like a nice launch. I believe the rear gear is a Yukon Posi 3.80.

I would like to spend as little as possible obviously but am willing to go up for my stated criteria. I figured 2500 range for the engine, 1700 for tranny and another 300 for mounts and adaptations.

But I also see wrecked GT's for less than 2k.

 

[ronson]

hello;

ok 2500 will rebuild your engine to completely stock.

RELIABLE 350 hp will cost you $2000.00 more. just a cheap set of eddy street heads is 1000.00. good afr heads are 2000.00.

a 302 gt is nothing like a 351 windsor. the 351 windsor is the best overall v8 engine ever made. plus a 302 gt is not a muscle car per se. yes it makes good hp but you cant smell any gas as it drips out your tail pipe and your car always starts easily and it will never ping/detonate.

it will also never shake your teeth out at idle like a real muscle car.
.

 

[philly4lyfe]

So I've gotten quotes from local shops from about 2500-3300 for the rebuild including boring and reassembly. One has a pretty good reputation.

Then is the idea of taking the entire power train from a GT with as few miles as possible a reasonable one? It seems I would save probably a few thousand if the TR3650 will fit in a '68 tunnel. Considering I don't even have a transmission yet.

 

[ronson]

yes its reasonable but i hate 302 fi cars so i am the wrong guy to ask, lol. i have a computer for the internet. i don't want one for my "muscle" car.

i'm an engine builder and i will gladly give you build advice if you want to go this way though. i doubt the tranny will fit but not sure.

 

[philly4lyfe]

yes its reasonable but i hate 302 fi cars so i am the wrong guy to ask, lol. i have a computer for the internet. i don't want one for my "muscle" car.

i'm an engine builder and i will gladly give you build advice if you want to go this way though. i doubt the tranny will fit but not sure.

I'd appreciate it. I agree with you on the computer issue. Is there any reason a modern 302 couldn't be converted into a carbereted engine?

 

[ronson]

I'd appreciate it. I agree with you on the computer issue. Is there any reason a modern 302 couldn't be converted into a carbereted engine?

hello;

now you're talkin. easiest deal in the world. get a big trash can. toss the distributor, the fi unit and every single piece of wiring attached to the engine and you are all done, lol.

then you can advertise the stuff on craigslist and maybe get $200.00 for it.

keep in mind your mileage will go down.

 

[philly4lyfe]

hello;

now you're talkin. easiest deal in the world. get a big trash can. toss the distributor, the fi unit and every single piece of wiring attached to the engine and you are all done, lol.

then you can advertise the stuff on craigslist and maybe get $200.00 for it.

keep in mind your mileage will go down.

Yes, but my manhood would go up!

It seems to be a lot easier to mate a tko or t56 to a modern 302 (as they were made for them I guess this makes sense). And it seems engine upgrades are cheaper and more plentiful to find as well. Plus I could probably get 200-300 for the block and another 200 for the GT40 heads.

 

[ronson]

Yes, but my manhood would go up!

It seems to be a lot easier to mate a tko or t56 to a modern 302 (as they were made for them I guess this makes sense). And it seems engine upgrades are cheaper and more plentiful to find as well. Plus I could probably get 200-300 for the block and another 200 for the GT40 heads.

lol.

ok no the engine upgrades and availability are exactly the same for both engines. either one will have a ton more torque than your 7000 rpm honda, lol.

a 351 is more manly than a 302. every body has a 302, even my grandma but thats ok. you can also stroke a 302 or the 351.

if you get a 302, you need to spend 600.00 porting the heads to make it run decent. same thing with the 351. heads are the key to hp.

either way 350 hp is a reasonable goal for either.

the 302 with 350 hp will have a nastier idle than the 351 with 350 hp. the 302 will need to rev farther to get 350 but thats ok if thats what you like.
.

 

[philly4lyfe]

A guy locally was selling a 351c already rebuilt. He had the work done at a shop in Texas where he moved from. He was asking 2500. Any thoughts on that?

 

[ronson]

A guy locally was selling a 351c already rebuilt. He had the work done at a shop in Texas where he moved from. He was asking 2500. Any thoughts on that?

hello;

very tricky. 351 c's have monster potential. it depends on the quality of build, piston type, head type etc.. the 4 v heads are vastly different from the 2v heads. if it has good quality aluminum heads buy it, lol.


i added to my previous post.
.

 

[philly4lyfe]

hello;

very tricky. 351 c's have monster potential. it depends on the quality of build, piston type, head type etc.. the 4 v heads are vastly different from the 2v heads. if it has good quality aluminum heads buy it, lol.


i added to my previous post.
.

Someone else told me getting the Cleveland will make finding header a bit challenging

 

[ronson]

Someone else told me getting the Cleveland will make finding header a bit challenging

there is a guy that has hooker super comps on a cleveland in a 67-68. he bought the ones for a 70 mustang

 

[philly4lyfe]

hello;

very tricky. 351 c's have monster potential. it depends on the quality of build, piston type, head type etc.. the 4 v heads are vastly different from the 2v heads. if it has good quality aluminum heads buy it, lol.


i added to my previous post.
.

The 351 Specs:
Disassembled short block (358)
Block-freshly bored .40 over, 2 bolt
Crank-4MA
Rods-Stock (shot peened)
manly bolts
Pistons-.40 over Keith Black #177
Cam-Radical
Comp Cams custom ground Hydraulic Roller for Cleveland build over 600 lift

 

[ronson]

hello;

no heads?

 

[Beechkid]

With regards to the 302, 351 & 400 windsor's..... All the block castings are the same, the 351 Cleveland while many per the marketing phamphlets believe they are sooo much better...it all really boils down to 3 items...

1. What is the desired engine power band
2. Where do you want the peak HP
3. Where do you want the peak Tq

If we are looking at stock 351w vs 351c in the same vehicle, in 1/4 mile strip venue, yes the C will easily outperform the W, but in a stoplight to stoplight challenge, the W will consistently outperform the C because the TQ curve comes in much sooner. With regard to the ol adage "There is no replacement for displacement", well that is an easy way to make power but with a little smarts applied it really has little to do with engine building during the past 30 years. While I am not a fan of "magazine builds", because most of the time, well, there's more BS than reality, back in the early 80's Hot Rod Mag turned 3 engine builders loose to see who could build the highest NA hp engines, IIRR each builder was given $5K.....2 of the 3 builders choose small blocks (Ford/Chev/Chrysler); the winner was a SBF...a 302 de-stroked to 290 cid....IIRR, the little engine turned out 500+ hp in the 7K range.

While this engine (like the others) turned out some great HP, it would be almost worthless in a street vehicle, here's why.......

Lets take 2 identical engines.....lets say a 454...

Engine #1: Makes 500 hp @ 6500 rpm, 500 lbs tq @ 4000 rpm
Engine #2: Makes 500 hp @ 5000 rpm, 500 lbs tq @ 2500 rpm

While #1 will run like a rabbit at the 1/4 mile; #2 will kill #1 in the 0-60ft leg & on the street, where the biggest issues is getting the vehicle moving, #2 develope's the TQ much lower and the curve will be flatter across the whole rpm band.........

There is an old saying about race engines....... if you're operating at any point in the mid-range (RPM) , you need a road map because you are lost.......

While there are certain applications where CID rules, they are few and in a real world where its all weight vs HP, in a $ for $ world SB's will consistently outperform BB's. My point being, there is very little performance gain that is inherient to the 351w that can't be easily achieved by the 302 or conversely, there is nothing that prohibits a 351w from performing as well as a 400.

While there is nothing wrong really with a Cleveland, if you look strictly at parts availability and $ for $ street build performance capability, the Windsor's win in most cases. While it is generally more cost efficient to purchase aftermarket heads, the oem heads (especially pre-66) all have excellent performance potential.

 

[philly4lyfe]

With regards to the 302, 351 & 400 windsor's..... All the block castings are the same, the 351 Cleveland while many per the marketing phamphlets believe they are sooo much better...it all really boils down to 3 items...

1. What is the desired engine power band
2. Where do you want the peak HP
3. Where do you want the peak Tq

If we are looking at stock 351w vs 351c in the same vehicle, in 1/4 mile strip venue, yes the C will easily outperform the W, but in a stoplight to stoplight challenge, the W will consistently outperform the C because the TQ curve comes in much sooner. With regard to the ol adage "There is no replacement for displacement", well that is an easy way to make power but with a little smarts applied it really has little to do with engine building during the past 30 years. While I am not a fan of "magazine builds", because most of the time, well, there's more BS than reality, back in the early 80's Hot Rod Mag turned 3 engine builders loose to see who could build the highest NA hp engines, IIRR each builder was given $5K.....2 of the 3 builders choose small blocks (Ford/Chev/Chrysler); the winner was a SBF...a 302 de-stroked to 290 cid....IIRR, the little engine turned out 500+ hp in the 7K range.

While this engine (like the others) turned out some great HP, it would be almost worthless in a street vehicle, here's why.......

Lets take 2 identical engines.....lets say a 454...

Engine #1: Makes 500 hp @ 6500 rpm, 500 lbs tq @ 4000 rpm
Engine #2: Makes 500 hp @ 5000 rpm, 500 lbs tq @ 2500 rpm

While #1 will run like a rabbit at the 1/4 mile; #2 will kill #1 in the 0-60ft leg & on the street, where the biggest issues is getting the vehicle moving, #2 develope's the TQ much lower and the curve will be flatter across the whole rpm band.........

There is an old saying about race engines....... if you're operating at any point in the mid-range (RPM) , you need a road map because you are lost.......

While there are certain applications where CID rules, they are few and in a real world where its all weight vs HP, in a $ for $ world SB's will consistently outperform BB's. My point being, there is very little performance gain that is inherient to the 351w that can't be easily achieved by the 302 or conversely, there is nothing that prohibits a 351w from performing as well as a 400.

While there is nothing wrong really with a Cleveland, if you look strictly at parts availability and $ for $ street build performance capability, the Windsor's win in most cases. While it is generally more cost efficient to purchase aftermarket heads, the oem heads (especially pre-66) all have excellent performance potential.

That makes a lot of sense. What I'm really concerned about is the 0-60 more than the quarter mile. If I find a builder I trust, they should be able to help guide me in terms of reaching this goal?

 

[philly4lyfe]

hello;

no heads?

No I spoke with the guy yesterday. He sold his heads and hadn't purchased new ones. Needs lifters, head and intake. So probably not a good deal.

 

[ronson]

No I spoke with the guy yesterday. He sold his heads and hadn't purchased new ones. Needs lifters, head and intake. So probably not a good deal.

hello;

yeah, you already have an engine and you can even buy a stroker kit for around $1700.00 which leaves you $800.00 for machine work which won't be that much on the block so no the cleveland is definitely not a good deal imo.
.