Ford Mustang Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I recently picked up a 1970 mach 1 with a 351M engine. The guy who had it before me put on an after market fuel injection kit that has a little controller box in the center console. There are a few problems im having but the biggest one is the starting.

The car starts fine when its cold, its a little sluggish but I believe the battery needs to be replaced and that is whats causing the sluggish start. But cold it starts fine. Once I drive the car around a little and park it and try to start it up it wont start untill the car is cold again.

So far I have checked the fuel that is all working correctly
the spark I have checked up to coming out of the coil, so the coil is sending spark to the distributor and the plugs are gapped correctly.

I havent been able to check to see if the spark is getting to the plugs yet.

Its not the starter or solenoid because the car turns and turns and turns just doesnt start. Im guessing its an ignition issue but ive read some people not having correctly seated valves and once the engine heats up they lose compression and the car doesnt start.

the car has a mallory unilite distributor and what seems to be a very low grade coil, I have a mallory ignition coil should be here in a few days. At this point I am completely stumped, the car runs great once its started its just once its warm it wont restart. The temp hasn't been over 210 which is normal for a 351 sitting in traffic. If anyone has any pointers or ideas that would be great cause if spark is getting to the plugs then I have no idea what to do. Im going to check the plugs tonight after work and ill update the thread when I can.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,115 Posts
When you say an aftermarket kit, what type? Throttle body or direct port? Did they put an electric fuel pump on the car? Look up the install instructions for that kit and make sure all the cautions and notes were complied with. Sometimes people gloss over those things and mess it up. I'd do a wire trace of the starting system in case there is a corroded or broken wire that acts up when hot and expands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Im not to familular with aftermarket fuel incestiors but this one basically has this big thing on top of the carb that squirts the fuel into the carb. Yes there is a electric fuel pump. Ive tried to look up something that resembles the kit thats on the car but I havent been able to find it. I dont know if the guy installed it correctly when I look in the engine bay there is wires that arnt connected and some are just hanging so idk what he did. I will say I do play on removing all the efi stuff and putting everything back to stock, ie: mechanical fuel pump, regular carb, and installing a mallory hyfire ignition controller box.

Ill definately try the wire trace later tonight after work.

Do you think the crappy battery could possibly have anything to do with it. The spark coming from the coil was a light orange/yellow color not blue like Ive seen before is that normal.

Im kind of worried about vapor lock, He had to make new fuel lines and one im pretty sure if I remember correctly runs over the bell housing and the headers then up the back of the block and connects to the injector. But fuel comes out as liquid still so im not sure if that has anything to do with it either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
quick update. I just got called out of work because the car just died in traffic. A buddy of mine went to where it died eariler and was driving it back to my house and he had it in neutral sitting at a light then put it into first to go and it just died.

After a lengthy talk with the police to not tow it to their tow yard, me and one cop noticed that one fuel line was basically touching the headers and that line was reading 0 -5 psi. the other was reading 20 psi, there are two lines because of the efi system. Theres still fuel getting to the carb becaus I can see it. but idk if it just isnt enough or what. im on my way home to check the plugs now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,537 Posts
first are you sure its a 351m and not a 351w or c, and you have a throttle body injection. one line will have less pressure for its the return line but I don't know your set up so cant tell the number on it. there should be some numbers on the throttle body and a make. try to find them or take a pic and post it so we can figure out what you got and give the correct advice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
Check to see how close your headers/ exhaust is to your starter. If the headers are too close to the starter, they will get the starter hot and won't work properly until it's cooled down. Just a suggestion, I had that problem on my 68'.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 
6

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
put a new battery in it . try the new coil, if it still has prob get rid of the fuel injection. buy a holley carb.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
Injection

Properly installed a EFI system is usually flawless.
you need to educate yourself and us in order for us to help you.
identify the type of efi that has been installed on your vehicle. Then go to the internet and download the instructions and read it thoroughly. Then inspect the installation for errors. post your fidings and we can use our collective knowledge base to help you resolve the issues.
I can tell you that all of the efi systems i have ever installed/serviced use a minimum of 40psi pump pressure to the injectors. if you are at 20 its either defective/set incorrectly or designed to operate at 20 psi and unless you know the parameters of the system its useless for us to guess.
the display in the console must say something like pro flow / F.A.S.T. MSD Holley Projection or something.
Another huge mistake is drawing the 12 volts for the keyed side of the controls from a weak point that is suffering voltage or amperage drop like the radio feed or something like that.
Do some research and come back to the forum, there is a reason and a solution for your issues
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Its definately not the starter because the engine turns just doesn't start. Yes I am sure its a 351m.

The efi controller in the console says holly projection 4. I'm going to try and download the instructions tonight but basing on the way the install looks he most likely cut corners.

I'm taking the efi system off regardless I would just like to get the car legal to drive in Hawaii and right now its not. And to make sure there isn't anything more serious going on

I bought a muscle car for the awesomeness of it not its gas mileage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I've been skiming over the instructions and after almost every paragraph it says make sure all fuel lines are away from heat. I'm going to really go through em tomorrow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
That is a great starting point but remember its a cool musclecar and EFI is for performance... a mile or two better is just an added benefit.
once you iron it out it will be 100% reliable. Check on the 20 psi fuel pressure, switched 12V supply and move the fuel lines away from any heat source ....running by the exhaust will cause your symptoms to the T. Also how do you know its a 351M? That is curious to me as it would require a Big block pattern C6 to bolt to a 351 m which is wider, bigger and heavier than a 351 Windsor or Cleveland.
Good Luck it seems you already have a great start on getting her going.
Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
The 20psi is good the manual says between 10-20 psi is normal. The 12 v source I'm going to trace this weekend and make sure it was installed correctly. I have the Marty report for the car that shows its a 351m and its the stock engine and tranny. Its a top loader 4speed. I'll try and get under there this weekend to get the numbers off the tranny to male sure its what its supposed to be.

I totally understand its for performance ide just kind of prefer it all stock. Thanks everyone for all the pointers I didn't even think to check the 12v source. Or look for the actual manual.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,537 Posts
can you take a pic of the engine, I have never seen a M engine in one. they were generally used in 1970s trucks and big cars. I could be wrong but I didn't think they came out until 71-72.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
I think you have a 351 cid M code engine not a 351M which did not come along till 1975 or so. I appreciate the stock thing but carburators are fickle at best and besides unless you take off the air cleaner no one will be the wiser. If you park this car in your house with a carb you can expect gas fumes to smell up the place and regular maintenance keeping it adjusted to cope with ethanol enhanced fuels and so on.
If you want to drive it and it be virtually worry free from hot start problems, cold start problems, long storage fuel evaporation and gumming up, flooding out on hills, Odor etc get the fuel lines away from any heat source by insulation or rerouting, run a 12V lead with a 20 amp fuse directly from the battery and use a relay to switch it sothe injection brain(the handheld)) has a good clean power supply and I think you will be very pleased.
That system should let you adjust idle, pump shot(this prevents and corrects acceleration stumble) and WOT fuel trims all from the hand held. Adjusting a carburator is not easy at all - its easy for guys who cut thier baby teeth on power valves and jets and unless thats you you will be at the mercy of someone else's abilities or lack there of.
I invite you to read the manual and see how the car is currently set up .... record the settings and play with the controller - you cant break anything and to make any change its done in seconds from the driver seat when you hit enter and just as easily undone.
You probably have a 351 Cleveland engine and it can be identified lots of ways but the easiest is to follow the top radiator hose and if it goes down vertically next to the distributor onto the engine block and not into the intake manifold its a Cleveland style engine, if however it goes directly into the front end of the intake manifold its a Windsor. Both are excellent engines. the M and H code denotes 2 or 4 barrel(Carbureator Venturi) intake manifold. The 351C had a 2 and 4 barrel head design as well with different valve sizes...not sure of the Windsor family head.
Hope this helps you
joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Sorry for the confusion yes Its a 351 Cleveland bit its an m code on the vin. Not sure if its the 2 or 4 v heads I haven't taken the valve covers off to see I know its a clevland, besides the intake manifold and the valve covers you can tell by the fuel pump bolts.

After looking at his install a little and going through the manual there's a bunch of exhaust leaks from the shortly weld job for the o2 sensors and the efi fuel sending unit is a OEM fuel sending unit that he drilled out and put a place to install the return hose and attached it with some job weld or something, but it came off and drips fuel now. When I traced the wires he pretty much cut everything engine wiring harness coming out of the fire wall besides the stuff foe the head lights.

if It was only making new fuel lines away from heat and it started working right I may think about keeping it but finding all this other shotty work I want to just fix everything at this point. There's some stuff on the interior that he did like cutting some spots in the dash and console for this efi stuff. It'll b cheaper and easier to install a carb and new fuel pump.

I had a 66 289 mustang that I rebuilt to a 347 stroker so I'm pretty familiar with carbs and how to deal with em and what goes along with em so I'm not really worried about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
I reccomend you reinstall the efi correctly as you have to fix it all anyway and most of the archteceure is in place but its up to you, once correctly done you will LOVE it for its tunability and reliability. If you dont want it shove it all in a box and if you will take a few bucks for it all Im your man because I know its true capability.
Look at the front upper corner of the cylinder head near the radiator hose on the passenger side and near the distributor on the driver side and the head will have a small number 2 or 4 cast into it....thant tells you if its a 2 or 4 barrel head and both are great.
Also you can leave the hand held in the glove box it does not have to be displayed at all...once its set up you only need it for changes..
Glad you got it figured out though...
Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
quick update

Just finished putting in new e3 plugs, new plug wires, Mallory coil, new solenoid, and a new optima battery.

As before started fine cold. It still seemed like the battery was struggling to start the car, started out very slow but eventually got faster until the car started. Drove it around let it sit and idle for like 10 mins and everything was fine sounded awesome. Drove it back home parked it let it sit for a little to heat soak. When i restarted it it did the same thing. At first it sounded like the battery was gonna die but eventually it cranked normal. The car semi started but as soon as I released the key it died. And then didn't start at all after that it just cranks and cranks.

Is there any way to test the distributor besides taking out a plug and seeing if it sparks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,115 Posts
So it really didn't start OK when cold. I didn't see that you have pulled out the starter and had it checked. Or the cables going to it. Once the engine heat soaks the resistance goes up and binding things can get tighter. Also, how is your timing set.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
That's what I'm going to check now that I know the ignition is good. I'll have the starter checked. The starter turns though when it doesn't start. I'll check the timing and post an update.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Got the starter checked today it was good. The canal going to the starter was two different cables glued together so I replaced that. Checked the timing initially it was 7 btdc. According to manual the stock timing is supposed to be 10 on one table and 6 on another table so I just put it to 10. It actually ran a little better.

Didn't smell rich anymore, didn't studder out of first, and stayed at a steady 190 the whole test drive even idling for 10 mins.

Went home turned it off and let it heat soak a little. Tried to start it again and it sturred a little and i had to hold the key longer but it eventually started. Drove it around again and everything was good went back and this time it got up to 220 while it was sitting. Tried to start and it wouldn't start this time. I'm going yo try advancing the timing a little more tomorrow and see if that helps.

Oh I also pulled a plug and it was getting spark and fuel was goigtthe throttle body
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top