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In the October issue of Mustangs and Fast Fords, they install a BBK CAI and a throttle body in an 05 Mustang. They got a max extra 27 HP on a dyno over stock.

I was very surprised with this text in the article, however:

Page 126

"No laptop or other tuning is needed, as the factory computer automatically compensates for the increased airflow".

I'm no expert, but this seems to contradict what I've read in other magazines and forums.

Can anyone confirm or deny? It sounds too good to be true (not having to retune, that is).
 

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I'm close........

I got a MMR CAI, UNDER the pretence that I would NOT have to have a tune..... I was WRONG. Dont get me wrong, my car went like a bat out of hell with it in, but I got the CEL light after about 10 miles. I did EVERYTHING the MMR told me to do, but I still getthe CEL. So my BRAND NEW MMR CAI is for sale, on ebay. Some one can save a lot of $$$$ if ya want a tune and buy mine:winks . I cant justify getting a tune with about 1,000 miles on her, OK well maybe i cant justfy to Mrs. Mustangbaxter why I need a tune, but I'll tell ya first hand this CAI really does rock....

Tim
 

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dougutx said:
what does a tune usually run at the dealer? or a custom tune shop?
You need your own tuner, $375. You can do it yourself for free, with help from the CAI manufacturer and/or with STC or Diablo's help...

A professional/personal tune (recommended) starts at $100 with three (often more) dyno runs, inkluding; a SAFE tune, RWHP and TQ printouts...

It is SO worth it!
 

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I questioned this myself and tried to find out on BBK's website but they don't even list the new parts in their catalog. I haven't had time to call them but I am also suspiciuos about the HP gians with no tune. Everyone, except for K&N, requires a tune and I have called Steeda, C&L, K&N to confirm this so if anyone has any extra info please share it with us.


cobra4548
 

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cobra4548 said:
I questioned this myself and tried to find out on BBK's website but they don't even list the new parts in their catalog. I haven't had time to call them but I am also suspiciuos about the HP gians with no tune. Everyone, except for K&N, requires a tune and I have called Steeda, C&L, K&N to confirm this so if anyone has any extra info please share it with us.


cobra4548
I just installed the K&N CAI this evening - no tune. Took a couple hours, but not bad for a guy with mostly thumbs.

Anyways... I let it idle until operating temp. Then idle for a couple mins, and a couple more minutes with full a/c. Then drove around about 25 miles - 20 highway, 5 city. No CEL as yet. Might sound a bit louder now, hard to be sure. Track test it on Friday - weather permitting.

My car came with the h/c trap which I removed a few months ago and did not put it back in with the K&N. I'm debating whether to put it back in or leave it out. Do you think it's ok as long as the CEL doesn't brighten up my dash?? then again, if I burn the a valve or two, gosh darn, I'll just have to buy some performance heads. Sure hope the rings don't go, though.
 

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update - K&N at 1/4 mile

first run was best ever. 2/10s off my previous best time. Couldn't duplicate it in the next 6 or 7 runs, but no worse than stock setup. Got rained out an hour before closing. :sosad: Last chance of the season next Friday. Got my fingers crossed for good weather.
 

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From what I'm hearing on other forums, most of the CAI kits will give modest 10-15 RWHP gains with a good tune. As for the larger TB, there have been a couple of dyno tests, with other TB's and have had no gains on the dyno. This car was also supercharged and no gains!! But they think it could have been a restriction in the CAI. But I have heard many comments about better throttle response with the larger TB's. So track times will be the proof. As far as a I know BBK has not even gotten their TB to market yet.....?????
 

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chuckles said:
From what I'm hearing on other forums, most of the CAI kits will give modest 10-15 RWHP gains with a good tune. As for the larger TB, there have been a couple of dyno tests, with other TB's and have had no gains on the dyno. This car was also supercharged and no gains!! But they think it could have been a restriction in the CAI. But I have heard many comments about better throttle response with the larger TB's. So track times will be the proof. As far as a I know BBK has not even gotten their TB to market yet.....?????
You should get 10-15 RWHP with a CAI or a tune! Mid 20's with both... The trottle body on a injected car is a difficult thing... the engine can only handle that much air / fuel (unless you push it in, ie. S/C, Turbo...) it was better back in the days... :winks

Response might be better as the air for WOT will arrive quicker...??

The filter on a S/C car should be of no issue as the S/C will suck what air it needs, and often more (hence the relief valves)... quite a bit going on between the filter and the TB in a S/C car...

BBK has always had good products out there and if your engine can handle the mix I'm sure you'd see a gain from it, as always bigger is better... and to get the air there in larger amounts quicker would prolly give a better/quicker response...

Just my .02 Euro Cents...
 

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I have had the K&N on w/o a tune for over a month and no problems. Don't know HP increase but definitely runs better and sounds great.
 

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I know this is going to sound rude, but...


Why are so many people having such a difficult time understanding this concept? Assumming you start with a stoich. mix, the more air you add without additional fuel leans out the a/f mix. The 05 Mustangs come stock running on the rich side, so you can safely add a decent amount of airflow without thinning out the a/f mix so much that you experience immediate, noticeable problems while gaining an immediate benefit in tq and hp.

However, the better the cai/induction system is designed, the more air will get into the engine, and hence the more the a/f mix will be thinned (i.e. leaned) out.

If you don't compensate for this by adding additional fuel (and then adjusting the timing, etc), then you'll only gain a limited amount of extra power until the mixture becomes too lean and no longer burns efficiently.

If you can add an induction kit without retuning the engine, then, engineering-wise, that means the induction system is only increasing the airflow enough to compensate for the already-rich a/f mix from the factory. Any increase in the airflow beyond that point will continue to further lean-out the a/f mixture, with the ultimate result of your CEL idiot light going on.

This is how some of these kits require a re-tune, and others do not. The C&L intake and the Steeda Intake (as two examples) increase the airflow so much so that a/f mixture is leaned out too much, and the mix is no longer close to stoicheometric.

If you're looking for the maximum bang-for-buck with a n/a engine, then you want to increase the airflow as much as possible, while keeping it as dense and cold as possible, and then adjust your fuel add and ignition variables accordingly.

Maybe the moderators here can make some kind of sticky about this. But get somebody from Ford Racing to write it, because I know people are going to continue to argue about this mechanically basic concept.

~Mo
 

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Mo,

You're right on! And as you I guess, me too think it gets tiresome to type, or read the same over and over. The main problem is that SOME manufacturers state 'no tune needed' even though they know it's bull! Some of these poor guys drive 1000 miles thinking / hoping the CEL will go out... Hopefully it will or they give up and tune before they damage something... if the engine computer even let that happend, limp home, shut down etc...??

And the BBK (and others to follow) TB is a 'new' piece to the mix so I guess this thread is warranted...?? Any-who, it's on the same lines and I won't believe it till I see it! I saw one install and that car would barely idle without a tune!

I don't see the problem with the tuner either, we used to have to buy new computers, and then send them away to have them tuned for every change! The portable tuners today are a LUXURY, and they do OH-SO much more than just tune the engine perimeters!

If you want a better car, get a tuner, if you still want a better car, get a CAI, and then go from there!

Mo, well said, and sorry for rambling in my .02 Euro Cents...
 

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Moses said:
If you can add an induction kit without retuning the engine, then, engineering-wise, that means the induction system is only increasing the airflow enough to compensate for the already-rich a/f mix from the factory. Any increase in the airflow beyond that point will continue to further lean-out the a/f mixture, with the ultimate result of your CEL idiot light going on.

This is how some of these kits require a re-tune, and others do not. The C&L intake and the Steeda Intake (as two examples) increase the airflow so much so that a/f mixture is leaned out too much, and the mix is no longer close to stoicheometric.
It's not quite that easy... Ford's stock computer can compensate for quite a bit of additional air, however, the mass air sensor has to be able to correctly read the amount of air. It's a highly sensitive apparatus and must be mounted "just so" in the intake with the right diameter air hose so it "knows" how much air is passing at a given "airspeed". With improper mass air sensor mounting, either a tune is required or a new mass air sensor that sends correct numbers to the ECU.
 

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Nonsensez9,

Acknowledged, it was to some degree an oversimplification for illustration purposes only. However, the engineering logistics are sound and, essentially, it is the basis of the a/f balancing act being performed by the engine & PCM .


By the way, as you mentioned, I've read about the sensitivity of the MAF sensor elsewhere also, some even suggesting that it's horizontal angle will effect it to a significant degree.

Do you have any more information about that aspect? Now that is definitely something that no one is talking about, but darn well should be. Most people are just slapping the MAF sensor back into the MAF housing unit, then assuming all is good. But considering how this sensor works, why aren't manufacturers of CAI's with new MAF housing units that are of a larger diameter than stock selling aftermarket MAF sensors? Or is that the MAF Housing unit coming with the CAI was engineered to correctly position the MAF sensor at the right depth within the housing unit thus eliminating the need for a new one?



Thoughts?
~Mo
 

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Afraid I don't know much beyond what I've stated. Though some people have mentioned that the CEL goes on after simply removing the h/c trap, so there may be some upper limit after all. Ford probably continues to update their factory tune.
 

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The stock MAF pegs at 5V sending a signal to the computer that there is too much air coming in and it cannot measure it, the computer send fuel per max but will give the driver a signal something is askew/wrong... = CEL...

But most CAIs come with a MAF that don't peg, so I guess as long as the computer is not AM tuned, hence tuned to the stock MAF getting readings (well?) above 5V it gets confused... = CEL...

?????
 

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The MAF sensor will never peg at 5v on a N/A stock block. Its just not possible. The motor cannot pump enough air to do it.

You would have to make over at least 400rwhp to do it.

The CEL light issue is a feature that governs the aftermarket IMHO. The MAF electronics are very sensitive to position and size of the surrounding, not neccessarily the amount of air.

The MAF computers have the ability to compensate a lot to added air flow, so running too lean is really not a concern. The oxygen sensors help to tune your fuel maps as you drive. The short term fuel trims are averaged out to long term fuel trims that are used to compensate your fuel delivery.

Larger MAF sensors that are not properly calibrated can also cause issues with load tables that determine spark timing. The larger the housing the lower the velocity and the proportions of air measured by the sensor are off to what actually goes into the motor. The fuel tables will be trimmed regardless but the load data that determines the spark advance will be skewed and will result in loss of horsepower in some cases and gains in others.

Hence you see calibrated MAF sensors for larger injectors that result in faulty timing and loss of power over dyno tuned and calibrated computer/meter combinations.

This information is just my opinion from my experiences. To me the "not tune" CAI kits that are the best are the ones that keep a stock size meter housing. Otherwise, you need to get an adequate tune done for larger housings.

I also think that too big of a throttle body could lower low rpm torque since it lowers port velocity and the 4.6 small block is not a big stroker.
 

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jeffstiles said:
The MAF electronics are very sensitive to position and size of the surrounding, not neccessarily the amount of air.
Sort of. I guess in a manner of speaking, the amount of air is irrelevant, only because the MAF sensor is calibrated to specific MAF housing diameter like you say. If the PCM *reads* more air flowing over the MAF sensor, then it will adjust the fuel curve to what *it* calculates to be appropriate. But with a larger MAF housing unit, there's actually *more* air coming through than what the stock MAF sensor is detecting (because the PCM is not calibrated to account for the larger diameter housing), which results in the PCM not accomodating sufficiently (i.e., not adding enough fuel). Hence the need for the "manual" tuning, to override the PCM's ability to compensate correctly.

In any event, I couldn't imagine altering the induction/fuel systems on a vehicle without tuning it. It just sounds like shooting with your eyes closed.

Some one might say "hell yeah, it feels so much better now". But you can't trust your subjective interpretations of reality. If you tell somebody you installed a new whatchamacallit in your car before they test it out, more often than not they will actually think it is running better/stronger/faster/quicker/whatever (if they trust your authority on cars).

Before & after dyno, controlling all the variables as possible: the only way to know.
 

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JEFFSTILES,

Thank you, very good post (even though I had to read it three times to get the just of it... :tongue )

I think you're right on not being able to peg the MAF NA, I actually got that number from blown applications...

You wrote "
The MAF computers have the ability to compensate a lot to added air flow, so running too lean is really not a concern. The oxygen sensors help to tune your fuel maps as you drive. The short term fuel trims are averaged out to long term fuel trims that are used to compensate your fuel delivery." But I (and many on here) have seen cars running (dangerously?) lean in dyno runs with data loggers, one I saw with a CAI and removed trap was even interupted before max RPM for running (dangerously?) low...

So in short you should get a CAI in stock diameter with the MAF housing stock size, and the MAF in the exact stock placement and angle...?? Pjuufff... and then it might work without a tune, but one should always tune anyways...

I guess the more open TB would have the same effect as the CMDPs on the low end TQ...??

Too much now... :confused:
 
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