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I've heard a lot about a 351w cleveland engine, is close to a hemi? or what's so unique about it? and what's not so good about it.
351 Cleveland - Pros and Cons?
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Hello.
Nothing is close to a 426 hemi. I hate to have to say that, but it's the truth. As far as actual, to the wheels horsepower goes, the 426 hemi was putting out more than an 'R' code 427 by a couple of hundred, and more than anything GM built back then by several hundred. Dual quad 426 hemis in basically stock configuration dyno at something in the low to mid 800 hp range,:shocked: where a dual quad 427 will typically dyno at something in low to mid 600 hp range, both of which where rated at a ridiculously low 425 hp.:gringreen Most of GM's stuff dynos at or below where they rated them.
As far as a motor to put in your car goes, a 351 Windsor would be a much better fit, and with the plethora of aftermarket parts available, there really isn't a noticeable difference between the performance of the two. Hope that helps.
Nothing is close to a 426 hemi. I hate to have to say that, but it's the truth. As far as actual, to the wheels horsepower goes, the 426 hemi was putting out more than an 'R' code 427 by a couple of hundred, and more than anything GM built back then by several hundred. Dual quad 426 hemis in basically stock configuration dyno at something in the low to mid 800 hp range,:shocked: where a dual quad 427 will typically dyno at something in low to mid 600 hp range, both of which where rated at a ridiculously low 425 hp.:gringreen Most of GM's stuff dynos at or below where they rated them.As far as a motor to put in your car goes, a 351 Windsor would be a much better fit, and with the plethora of aftermarket parts available, there really isn't a noticeable difference between the performance of the two. Hope that helps.
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For the truth about all things Cleveland instead of rumors and half truths go to this site:
Ford 335 "Cleveland" Series Engine Forum
The best engine to build in this case is the one you have. If you have a Windsor go that route, if you have a Cleveland.....
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Good point, but "Ouch!"
because in the 70s and 80s when the oil issuies came about ford pussed out like all the other companies and went for fuel economy. Dont badmouth the cleveland it was a great engine and will blow a windsor out of the water hands down.
The Cleveland died in 82 but the Windsor made at the same time lived on.Ford didn't can it for oil reason or the Windsor would have went first it was older but didn't.Factory specs the Cleveland is better but the Windsor has a bigger after market.Its like comparing a fe to the 385.
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It may have been cheaper to manufacture the Windsor than the Cleveland as the heads were truly exotic for what they were. Ford and the oil scene were both going through some changes at that time. What we got for economy was the the Mustang II that nobody seemed to find anything good about( front suspension excepted).However, the King Cobras were very cool.:bigthumbsup However couldn't quite fit a 16 gal keg in the back for college use....and I'll not say anything more on that. Thank you.:gringreen
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Easy, the Windsor block was easier and far cheaper to adapt to the second generation of smog controls than the Cleveland block. Don't forget that the Cleveland still lived on in Australia after Ford US stopped producing it because they didn't have the same smog regs.
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Everyone got out of pure performance motors in the 70s in the US but they still needed truck motors.
:nono: Its not nice to say inflammatory things for no reason other than to get a rise out of people.
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I've really been wanting to build my own 7,500 RPM Boss 302 for some time now. That would be an amazing sounding engine.
Cleveland heads are somewhat similar to hemis, though, because they both have canted valves, but that's the last of the similarities.
Cleveland heads are somewhat similar to hemis, though, because they both have canted valves, but that's the last of the similarities.
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The truth is smog regs and cost killed the Cleveland.
Back in the 70's the Windsor was not considered a perfomance engine at all. All of the Ford drag racers and NASCAR teams ran the Cleveland, not a Windsor in sight. In fact, Ford is still running Cleveland heads in NASCAR.
The reason the Windsor is king of the aftermarket and not the Cleveland (even though the Cleveland does have a healthy aftermarket all it's own) is that since 1974 it's the only engine available in the Mustang. Of course the afermarket is going to support, just like the aftermarket is supporting the 4.6.
The fact that the 351 Cleveland is still being supported by the aftermarket says something, after all it was only produced for four years in the US.
The bottom line is the Windsor benefitted from being the only Ford passenger car V8 for over 20 years. And even with all those years of aftermarket developement, the Cleveland is still more than competitive.
And one last observation: It's almost always the Windsor people who trash talk Clevelands; it's rarely the other way around. Why is that?
i'll say this....i have a 351c .060 over w/ MANY mods. Just slapped on a set of ported and polished aussie heads (which are amazing) and I am putting out around 475-500 horse w/out the bottle. All of my mods are easy, and nothing fancy. You can groom these motors to something really special....especially w/ the "aussie style" heads. 4v heads were great on the top end, but sluggish on the streets, the open chamber 2v heads were on the other end of the spectrum. the aussies found the right way to build heads, and that was with a 4v closed combustion chamber, and the smaller 2v runners. i would recommend a 351c to anyone any day...end of story!
As my PMI in the Marine Corps said Gun Control means hitting your target!
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Cleveland heads arent similar to Hemi Heads, to call the Hemi head a canted valve head is a major understatement. But they are similar to another very good head, thats the Big Block Chevy rectangular port head.
Veronica I usually agree with your info but I think you watched that Speed Channel shootout. That thing was a croc. Im a Mopar man and a stock '67 spec 426 Street Hemi dynos about 350 to the wheels. The later ones make a bit more power with a revised cam, maybe a few with sharp tuning would spin 500 at the crank. Hemi heads move some air but the stock cam could not take advantage.
Clevelands are a far superior design to the W, you couldnt build much more than 400 hp out of a Windsor without aftermarket heads, even if you stroked it to a 408 or so youd be lucky with 450 horses. You can easily make 500 with a 351 with 4V Cleveland heads. They might have less down low, but thats hwy you build a car as a complete package, you gear it and select a convertor to take advantage, or run a four speed.:bigthumbsup
Veronica I usually agree with your info but I think you watched that Speed Channel shootout. That thing was a croc. Im a Mopar man and a stock '67 spec 426 Street Hemi dynos about 350 to the wheels. The later ones make a bit more power with a revised cam, maybe a few with sharp tuning would spin 500 at the crank. Hemi heads move some air but the stock cam could not take advantage.
Clevelands are a far superior design to the W, you couldnt build much more than 400 hp out of a Windsor without aftermarket heads, even if you stroked it to a 408 or so youd be lucky with 450 horses. You can easily make 500 with a 351 with 4V Cleveland heads. They might have less down low, but thats hwy you build a car as a complete package, you gear it and select a convertor to take advantage, or run a four speed.:bigthumbsup
The 427 SOHC "Cammer", part # C6AE-6007-359J, listed for $2350.00, weighed 680 lbs, and produced 657 hp, right out of the Ford parts catalog.Hello.
As far as a motor to put in your car goes, a 351 Windsor would be a much better fit, and with the plethora of aftermarket parts available, there really isn't a noticeable difference between the performance of the two. Hope that helps.
A comparable 426 Hemi in stock trim would make a realistic mid 500s hp.
The 427 SOHC was cutting edge at the time, and MOPARs attempt to create a comparable single and even dual overhead cam 426 had severe reliability issues, and only 1 example remains of the 2 prototypes.
It's a shame NASCAR banned the 427 cammer from racing before it ever ran at the Daytona 500 opener, because I'm sure it would have performed extremely well.
Well, there's important points to each motor design.
The cleveland's monstrous head width means the block had to have a lower deck height(9.206") to keep the motor's overall width within the confines of their car's shock towers.
Therefore, if you want big cubes, you need to use a taller 351W block.(with a 9.503" deck)
The 351C oiling issues can be remedied with an external oiling line, and some pipe plugs in key places in the oil passages, after which, the 351C becomes a nice, solid, high rpm motor. The 351W, in contrast, has huge 3" main journals, which are too large to run at high rpm, as all that surface area creates a lot of friction and heat. That's why a screaming 351W with stock main journals will often spin a bearing.
So for big power, you either have to use journal sleeves and a 351C crankshaft, or keep the revs down by going forced induction or big displacement. (I'm currently gathering parts to build a 351W based on a '94 roller cam block with a 4.18" stroke x 4.030" bore, displacing 427 cubes.) My motor will make 600 hp and 500 ft/lbs on pump gas, without revving over 6500.(thus the planned hydraulic roller cam)
But I do like the Clevelands, largely because of how cool they look sitting in an engine bay.
It's kind of pointless to argue which is better, because there's so many variables to consider, including personal choice. Although, in the 351W's favor, there's a lot more parts available for it in the aftermarket, and in bone yards. And the 1994+ roller cams really do wonders for low speed torque, efficiency and engine longevity.
In my Mustang II, I have an 8500 rpm 302, stroked to 332, with canted valve TFS heads on it. I suppose the sound is pretty close to what you're talking about.
There's links to videos of the car in my sig.
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