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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone, new owner of a 351 cleveland! After I rebuild the engine I plan on stuffing her into a 1991 5.0. I just have a couple questions about the 351c. First, i've been reading alot lately on the 351c, and I keep hearing that the 351w is the way to go. It seems the most common reason for suggesting the 351w is that the cleveland was only made for a few years, so parts are uncommon and very expensive. This news isnt exciting to me, however i dont plan on having the eninge up and running very soon, it all takes time and $$. Does anyone know which engine (351c or 351w) preforms better? Second, ive heard that the cleveland is a good high rpm engine, so would it be bad to put in a t-56 6 speed instead of a t-5 because it shortens up the gears? Also would it be bad to put 4.10/3.73/3.55 vs stock gears for the same reason? And has anyone heard/know where to get the conversion to 383 or 393 stroker kit for the 351c? Lastly, would you recomend super charged or turbo charing the engine? I would rather super charge it, but if there is more plusses to turbo charging then I would be interested in hearing them. Thank you all verry much
 

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Personally I would go with the windsor. It's lighter, smaller, has way more speed parts available. Clevelands are notorious for thin cylinder walls so .030 is usually max unless you have the block sonic checked for thickness and you get a good one. Stock cleveland heads are poor even the four barrell ones. The reason it is a high rpm motor is because the heads are too big and you need to rev it high to make power. You would be better off with a 408 windsor stroker.
 

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I'm more than happy with my 351c. It has the 4bbl heads, mild cam, and headers. I stroked the crank .020 and had it balanced to 9000 RPM. I only spent $1200 rebuilding it and I got 400 HP and 425 TQ and 16 MPG. I'll be adding an AOD for a possible 20 MPG. It doesn't have to be revved to feel the power. It launches hard enough that I can't hook up my 295/50s. The Cleveland is only an inch taller than a 302 and over an inch and a quarter shorter than a 351w. It would cost twice as much to get 400 HP out of a Windsor because the heads won't support 400 HP. The Windsor's weak point is the heads. They just don't have the flow capabilities. They are OK for mild performance if you are willing to spend some money on them, but if you want power, you have to upgrade to a better set of heads. The Cleveland already has the better heads so start with the better motor, the Cleveland. :cool:
 

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hi the cleveland i have in my 68 coupe is the best stock engine i've ever had! quite fun and kills the the cars i've driven with 289, 302, 305 4bbl (malibu hehe), and 351 windsor. its been very good on gas, sounds cool and peels very nicely. i wouldn't say no to one in both my mustangs hehe. the performance shop i called said there was no probs getting headers intake, cam and parts for it and he thought they were good engines. i'm not much for going crazy with my engines but this would be fun to buid up. http://www.corral.net/forums/ has a section for the cleveland and alot of fans that seem to know how to build them up. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Thanks everyone, its nice to hear some people giving a thumbs up to the cleveland. Does anyone know how to increase the low end power?
Caveman, do you think you could list your mods to your engine, and how you balanced it out to 9,000 rpms? Also, did you spend 1,200 getting it rebuilt or on the parts for rebuilding? I'm going to college for the next two years for automotive techincian, and the first year we get to rebuild/modify an engine, we still have to pay for parts, but I dont have to pay to get someone rebuild the engine. Thanks agian everyone and i'd be glad to hear more input
 

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the 351C in my book is the way to go. I have a 71 and i am starting a 351 project on it. if you are goin to race it or have it for pleasure i would go with the cleveland. If you have no smog rules in your state go with a charger and dual carbs. I recommend a pair of demons if you have the money, if not edelbrock works good for carbs. not sure about tranny, i run automatics with shift kits and ratchet shifters. they just shift on the fly and i get better times out of the traps (no clutch slippage).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Dragstang71, dumb question, but i was wondering when you refered to the charger and dual carbs, are you refering to the charger engine and dual carbs, or is the charger a new intake/head/mod that you put on the 351c? thanks
 

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There is never a dumb question. I should have clearified myself. I turbo charger verses a super charger are two major things. I would use a super charger for your intake and put two carburaters on top of it. there are fuel injection kits out there for the 351C but i hate computers. you would get a better tunning and running engine with a chip but i love that raw horse power of an old engine. what ever you decide to do make sure you take your time and research indepth. there are some cheap programs to run on a desktop pc to help show what changes will do to your engines. Common one i use is Desktop-dyno2000. i hope that answered your question
 

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I used a local machine shop for the rebuild. They stroked the crank .020 and sent it down the road to a shop that balances race engines. All I had to do was ream out the exhaust ports. The machine shop bill was about $1100 and I spent about $100 on misc. stuff. The cam is from Crane. It has .521/.519 lift and 112 deg lobe separation. The wider separation gives me more bottom end grunt and good vacuum. A tighter lobe separation would have given me more horsepower, but a narrower power band and less vacuum. This cam is perfect for the street. Be sure to get the recommended lifters and springs. :cool:
 

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caveman said:
I'm more than happy with my 351c. It has the 4bbl heads, mild cam, and headers. I stroked the crank .020 and had it balanced to 9000 RPM. I only spent $1200 rebuilding it and I got 400 HP and 425 TQ and 16 MPG. I'll be adding an AOD for a possible 20 MPG. It doesn't have to be revved to feel the power. It launches hard enough that I can't hook up my 295/50s. The Cleveland is only an inch taller than a 302 and over an inch and a quarter shorter than a 351w. It would cost twice as much to get 400 HP out of a Windsor because the heads won't support 400 HP. The Windsor's weak point is the heads. They just don't have the flow capabilities. They are OK for mild performance if you are willing to spend some money on them, but if you want power, you have to upgrade to a better set of heads. The Cleveland already has the better heads so start with the better motor, the Cleveland. :cool:
*as for your remark on the sizing of the clevland... the BLOCK might be shorter, but look at the clevland and the windsor side by side with the heads and intake on... the clevland is WAY bigger.. the clevlands heads are BIG and that results in a higher location for the intake to have to sit... the 351w is smaller thank you very much..
*as for your power ratings, ive seen 400hp out of the 351w put to gether with junk yard parts. a set gt40-P heads on a STOCK 351 windsor with the right cam can push 400hp and 450 ftlbs all day,
*as for your remark about the clevland having a better set of heads... maby some of there smog restricted 70's era heads, but the gt40-p's and the 60's era heads are tough to keep up with. becides good luck trying to find a set of affordable aftermarket aluminum heads for a 351c.. there everywhere for the windsor and very cheap, in fact there cheaper then the cost of having a machine shop rework a set of stock heads
** good day to you
 

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You wouldn't need aluminum after-market heads for a Cleveland even if they were a dime a dozen, the stock factory heads flow great already. I have a pickup with a Cleveland motor and 2 barrel heads, even those heads flow great compared to Windsor heads. Nothing wrong with a 351W, you can build one up to be awesome I don't deny that or discourage anyone from it, but the 351C is a souped up motor already.
 

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MustangMike, next time read the entire thread before you go babbling. Horsepower per dollars the Cleveland is cheaper. Rebuild parts are more expensive, but not by much. The only way a Windsor can keep up with a Cleveland is to replace the heads. Then you've spent more on the Windsor than you would on the Cleveland. As far as bigger, the heads are bigger, but they are not an inch and a half bigger. The Windsor is taller no matter how much you deny it. Now, before you get your panties in a wad, I'm not downing Windsor motors, I like them just fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Just get your facts straight first. :cool:
 

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caveman said:
MustangMike, next time read the entire thread before you go babbling. Horsepower per dollars the Cleveland is cheaper. Rebuild parts are more expensive, but not by much. The only way a Windsor can keep up with a Cleveland is to replace the heads. Then you've spent more on the Windsor than you would on the Cleveland. As far as bigger, the heads are bigger, but they are not an inch and a half bigger. The Windsor is taller no matter how much you deny it. Now, before you get your panties in a wad, I'm not downing Windsor motors, I like them just fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Just get your facts straight first. :cool:
Babbling huh? well last night i double checked and yup the 351c is wider AND taller (taller with the intake ON the motor) so theres for my facts home boy, because i have both motors siting my my shop. as for not reading the thread.. i read it.. and I said you could make a 351W push 400 hp all day with a set of GT40P heads you can find at any junk yard around.. so what exactly are you talking about again?? any ways let my clear up somhing that must have been misunderstood. Yes clevland heads are good... BUT if you get the speed bug and want MORE power then you have (like alot of us get) then you out of luck... 351C heads are good, but they have there limits. remember that there old parts, and todays after market heads offer more, but theres little to none for the after market department in the 351C's case

As I said before, you can make a windsor push as much power as a cleveland for the same amout of cash if you know what your doing. The windsor is a better motor (to me) because theres more parts out there for it if you want more power. But i think the 351C would be a better motor if you wanted somthing bullet proof, there heavyer then the windsor but thats because there stronger. becides i like the 4 bolt main that the celevland packs
 

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It's been a long time since I've done any work on a Cleveland, but I do remember there are several versions and the 2BBL cars do not have the good heads or 4 bolt mains. :smoke:
 

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The Cleveland 4 barrel are by far the best, but even the 2 barrel heads are monstrous by the standards of a 5.0 or 5.8 Windsor motor. The reason is the design, with the canted valves, you can just simply get more valve into the combustion chamber. But to do that you gotta have bigger combustion chamber, which means you need domed pistons to make up the compression lost. I think 2 barrel Cleveland heads probably flow better than GT-40 Windsor heads, but the combustion chamber design of the Cleveland is worse by comparison.
 

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Clevelands are still cool

I have had both engines in different cars.The Cleveland totally stock is a much better engine just because of the large port big valve heads .True a 351W is a great engine with a lot of parts available, but it cost a lot to build. .There are a lot of ways to make a Cleveland go fast for not a lot of money. Just to give you one example. My 70 Mach 1 with 2v 1973 open chamber heads which are some of the lowest compression heads,a Weiand 4v Xcelerator intake for 2v heads MSD ignition, headers, Holley 750 Vac. Carb,Isky cam & a $425.00 NOS Super Power Shot system is very streetable,But with a 389 Pos.a 3500 converter with a C-6 & 26" tall 14 Micky Thompson slicks that fit a 7" wheel will run a 11.99 ET @ 114MPH. That’s not a rocket but try getting that kind of performance out of a stock headed 351 W. There are lots of 351c parts new & used out there.Look on E bay there are Aussie closed chamber heads, & stroker kits there if u want more cubes.I have article where a couple of guys took an even lower performance 400m put $1200 in it & got 385 Hp to the wheels & 468 Ft. Lb. Of torque with a power band of 2000 RPM to 5500 RPM Im not saying the Cleveland is a better engine because you can build a killer 351W or a Mod. Motor but you better have a lot of $$$$. Think about this, good solid stock 351 C with NOS That’s low compression for street running 14.00ET @95 MPH feed it a little NOS & run low 12.00's to high 11's in the quarter email me if you like I have a few links for parts.
 

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I just had to jump into the fray!:)
Here are some dimensions for TYPICAL engines including water pump, air cleaner, exhaust manifolds and even the oil filter.
289,302: W-24 L-29 H-27 1/2 Weight 460 lb

351W: W-25 L-29 H-29 Weight 525 lb

351C: W-25 1/2 L-29 H-29(the 351M/400 is 26 wide)351C weight 550 lb.
 

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Okay, here's one more opinion to put on the pile...

After 30 years wrenchin' and building engines I have to give the nod to the Windsor without hesitation. Yes, the Cleveland has heads that breathe like crazy but the oiling system is weak. The 4v heads have good chambers but ports that are just too big for realistic street driving (keyword: realistic). The 2v heads have streetable port sizes but the chambers have no quench area at all and are prone to detonation. In other words, just plain lousy.

Some years ago, when building engines for street-stock class stock cars, we tried the Cleveland but had too many failures (can you say "grenade"?). After changing over to Windsors we had no major failures at all. That pretty much sold me on the durability of the Windsor design because these motors were just flat abused on the track.

The Windsor is a bit smaller and lighter, will make just as much power with the proper complimenting components and has had much more development attention from the aftermarket. Properly assembled a Cleveland is one heckuva motor, I readily admit. But for street performance usage I'd go with a Windsor every time. Matter of fact, my '70 Mach 1 will be getting a Windsor dropped in when I reach that stage of the project in place of the original Cleveland, and nobody will be able to tell the difference from a performance standpoint.

Just my two cents...
 

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Windsor

Remember the original post. He said he was putting it in a late model mustang. The windsor would fit much better and there are many parts to make the swap. All you need is an oil pan, and headers. Plus he could keep it fuel injected and run the front engine acceries with nothing more then a 351w ps bracket. It will bolt right up to the transmission.
The 351w sets to high in the late model and requirs a hood scoop of some type, and/ or lowering the engine some. Since the 351c sets even higher he would need even more clearence.
The 351w is an easy swap into a late model mustang. And yes the stock heads might not support 400hp, but GT-40 are cheap (you can get the gt-40p heads off explorers, but you must use the correct headers for the swap) and you can get a good set of iron heads for less then $1k. There are even some aluminun ones for less the $1k complete.Stroker kits start out around $700 for the 351w.
This swap would be a no brainer. Everyone can argue which engine is better, but only one would be a good swap into a late model fuel injected mustang.
 
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