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Discussion Starter #1
I was thinking about getting to some more substantial gains of hp on my car. I thought new heads, intake, etc. was a good idea beacuse i wanna stay N/A, but is it ok to buy them used? If you buy them used, does it affect the performance or give you less hp than what you would get if you bought them new? What brands are they best and what should i be looking for? What would a good price be for them used? I heard you can gain around 60 hp with these mods and i was wondering if there was anything else, like adding a new cam also, to get even more hp. I want to be around 310- 320 crank hp at least!!! Thanks guys
 

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upgrade

A good first step with an 02 is reworking the heads. Fox Lake will do a fine 5 angle cnc job for $750 plus shipping. Cams will run you between $500 and $600, and depending on your application, wear and mileage you may need new springs and retainers for $200 and up. For this money you can net about 40-60 hp at the crank. This does not include the labor and any additional parts (head gasket set, etc). Typical would be $2600 at a first class shop specializing in mustangs (see www.modularpowerhouse.com ).

As you can see, doing this plus some bolt-ons will quickly spend $3000 - $4000 (typical parts would include a bigger throttle body, intake plenum, x or h pipe, after cat, chip or tuner, and (if you're smart) some dyno time).

An alternative would be the installation of a supercharger, which will easily add 120hp or more, and cost about the same.

Regardless of whether you do the installs yourself or not, the dollar-per-horsepower equation really doesn't move much.

Another topic is gearing, and here a twin-screw (KB vs centrifugal) supercharger will work fine with your stock 3.27 gears, whereas the naturally aspirated performance will need 3.73 or 4.10 gears (about $400 installed).

If I were you I'd plan my build before buying parts - lots of folks start backwards with cars anyway. Beefing up power in a car that has marginal brakes and suspension to start with is a sure recipe for disastor. I build cars in the opposite direction: Brakes first, Suspension and Chassis second, Clutch and drivetrain third, and Motor last. This way your car is getting both safer and better performing while you do the build and as you drive the car on a daily basis. Boosting the heck out of the power without addressing these other shortcomings makes it far more likely you'll have an accident when your motor outruns your brakes.

tripleblack

MattKelley02GT said:
I was thinking about getting to some more substantial gains of hp on my car. I thought new heads, intake, etc. was a good idea beacuse i wanna stay N/A, but is it ok to buy them used? If you buy them used, does it affect the performance or give you less hp than what you would get if you bought them new? What brands are they best and what should i be looking for? What would a good price be for them used? I heard you can gain around 60 hp with these mods and i was wondering if there was anything else, like adding a new cam also, to get even more hp. I want to be around 310- 320 crank hp at least!!! Thanks guys
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So lets say that i bought a used cam, heads, but bought new springs. Would it be a bad idea to buy the heads used? Also, installing is no big problem with me, because i have a family friend that will install for free. If i was to spend a total of 2K on the total setup, would you just recommend a supercharger? I know i would have gotten some 3.73s for my next mod after the engine mods, but if i decide not to do the heads, can i get a decent used supercharger for around 2000-2200? I also know the the twin screw (KB) are the most desireable supercahrgers because of the amount of the low end torque. What about the vortech superchargers with different trims ie. V2, VSsq, A trim etc... can i get a differnt type of supercharger that isnt as highly rated ? Im kind of confusing myself haha. i just need hlep
 

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Discussion Starter #4
What about an E trim kit from vortech?
 

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Pi

I can see you're not interested in upgrading the brakes. Okkkkkkkkkk....

The point of buying used PI heads when you already own a set escapes me. Just remove the ones you have and have them machined.

As for used cams, again, you already have a pair of those in your car. If you're talking about picking up a pair of used aftermarket (comp, crane, crowder, etc) cams, I'd be careful doing this. If you end up having them reground its going to cost just about the same (used cams + machine work) as a nice new pair of cams. If you KNOW the used cams are correct for your application and in great shape, sure, go for it. If the cams are a lot stronger than stock, you MUST replace the springs with a set that matches the cams, and replacing the retainers at the same time just makes common sense. Old springs with strong cam = valve float (and worse).

$2000 will not get you a new supercharger, and I'm leary of used units unless you know how to check the clearances and have knowledge of the source. CNC job on the heads + new cams + new valve springs, etc. will be right at $2000 if you don't have to buy any labor.

Superchargers are best installed by experienced mechanics, mostly because of the tuning needed. Most good dyno shops will quote you upwards of $500 for the tune, by the way. Superchargers can be tricky to get right, and its not unknown for the installation to require multiple upgrades to such things as fuel pumps, fuel injectors, air/fuel mixture settings, spark plugs, etc, before they run reliably. Failure to do this can result in detonation, and inevitable death for the motor.

As for bang for the buck, the usual rule is:

Gears. Depending on your intended use (street/strip, etc), you'll get the most pop from gear upgrades IF you're not going with a positive-displacement (eaton or twin screw) supercharger. 3.73's will work well with everything except the aforementioned kenny bell, while 4.10's probably do best at the strip with a naturally aspirated car. As you can see, deciding what to do about gears FOLLOWS the decision of what to do about power-adders. Budget about $250 - $300 for parts.

If it were mine, I'd bank the $2000 and start saving the other $2500 I'd need to put a blower on the car. I've got some very expensive mods on my car that will be hitting the parts bin as soon as I put the supercharger on - not all mods play well with their peers. Things like gears, underdrive pulleys, cold air systems and custome tuners often don't match supercharger installations and are a waste of money in the end. Don't repeat me mistakes - you'll regret blowing big $ on bits that end up sitting on the shelf.

Also, avoid "upgrades" that cost a lot but add little horsepower. The only exhaust item that is cost-efficient on our cars (imo) is an x pipe. You'll get 10 or 12 hp from one, and its a simple swap that will yield a louder exhaust and cost about $200 - $350 (depending on whether or not you need cats) for parts. After cat systems add only a horse or two, and cost more than the x pipe. Shorty headers also add very little power, while long tubes WILL add some power but at a high price and only with matching X-pipe replacement at the same time. Long tubes usually cut down on ground clearance, too, and if you plan to lower the car, keep this in mind.

I see nothing wrong with the VorTech products, though I personally prefer the torque production curves on the Saleen and KB twin screw units. The centrifugal items like the VorTech and ProCharger behave similar to a turbocharger - including the low end lag between application of throttle and their power-adding ability which arrives around 3500 rpm and then is REALLY felt above 4500 rpm. The positive displacement sc's start adding power immediately, though they run out of steam at high rpms compared to the turbos and centrifugal sc's.

Again, I don't recommend used superchargers - there's more to a good kit than just the super. Complete kits include EVERYTHING needed and all matching - new injectors, fuel pump or fuel pump booster, brackets, belts, lines, hardware, tuner or chip, etc. Buying used I'd expect most of this to be suspect or missing.

There are some things I would buy used - but superchargers aren't on my list. Too many folks buy these things, slap them on their cars, and fail to take the time to properly tune the rig. Boom. Now there's a destroyed motor, and they're hoping they can salvage something from the ruins by selling somebody those "almost new" supercharger components. Odds are that the same disastor that wiped out the motor took its toll on the supercharger, too. Modern power-adders are as efficient as they are due to close tolerances for things like turbines and bearings....

Modular Powerhouse installs vortech units for around $3700 as I recall - you might contact them and see what is included in this. I suspect it is about as cheap as you can go with a new unit installed by professionals.

tripleblack


MattKelley02GT said:
So lets say that i bought a used cam, heads, but bought new springs. Would it be a bad idea to buy the heads used? Also, installing is no big problem with me, because i have a family friend that will install for free. If i was to spend a total of 2K on the total setup, would you just recommend a supercharger? I know i would have gotten some 3.73s for my next mod after the engine mods, but if i decide not to do the heads, can i get a decent used supercharger for around 2000-2200? I also know the the twin screw (KB) are the most desireable supercahrgers because of the amount of the low end torque. What about the vortech superchargers with different trims ie. V2, VSsq, A trim etc... can i get a differnt type of supercharger that isnt as highly rated ? Im kind of confusing myself haha. i just need hlep
 

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E Trim

Must say I'm not familiar with the E VorTech. I've driven cars with various versions of the S, and one with the T. As I recall, the base S (or SQ, something like that) was their current unit for our cars, with the T the next upgrade. Perhaps the E is the racing version?

My problem with VorTech stems from the fact that its been nabbed puffing up its numbers and also due to the fact that it draws hot motor oil from the oil pan (which has to be punched) to lube itself with. ProChargers have their own, self-contained lube, which I prefer. However, you get what you pay for, and I suspect the ProCharger will set you back more than the VorTech.



MattKelley02GT said:
What about an E trim kit from vortech?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Wow! Thanks a lot tripleblack, you really know your stuff i must say. Oh yeah, sorry about the whole brake thing, i'm going to upgrade the brakes next, but i didnt want you to think i wasn't was being a jerk about it, and sorry i didnt mention it. Anyway, next week i should have my brakes and 3.73's in. I think im going to get my heads etc. machined, and a tune...then ill be done. I need to start saving up some money for my Yamaha R6!!!

You really were a big help tripleblack, thanks a lot!
 

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All in the Math

You're welcome. If you listen to Meatball, you'll do just fine. He's one of the kindest folks on the net - and one of the most knowledgeable.

If you're interested in running the math on which mods to do first, second, etc see my sticky at http://www.mustangboards.com/general-tech-forum/4441-how-choose-modification.html . This is a brief, simplified version of a mathematical method to evaluate potential modifications to your car. Note that you can plug in lots of variables, such as weight, hp, torque, etc. If you read the whole thread, you'll find an argument with a bracket racer who disagrees with the idea of prioritizing or estimating the impact of an equipment change mathematically...

Imperical testing is always best, of course, but also involves the expense of the test and any failures. Swapping out a dozen different blowers on your car would doubtless yield information as to which is best for you, but would cost somewhere north of $100,000, so its my opinion that running a few 7th grade math problems might just be a good way to avoid this...

If you run the math, you'll discover that doing the gears first is almost always the best way to start spending your money, while doing the heads is probably second best (regardless of whether you next go with the sc or not). You might keep in mind that the labor to fix the heads is MOST of the way to also swapping cams on these sohc motors...

Good luck! Take lots of pics.

tripleblack

MattKelley02GT said:
Wow! Thanks a lot tripleblack, you really know your stuff i must say. Oh yeah, sorry about the whole brake thing, i'm going to upgrade the brakes next, but i didnt want you to think i wasn't was being a jerk about it, and sorry i didnt mention it. Anyway, next week i should have my brakes and 3.73's in. I think im going to get my heads etc. machined, and a tune...then ill be done. I need to start saving up some money for my Yamaha R6!!!

You really were a big help tripleblack, thanks a lot!
 

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This reminds me, I need to get that set of slotted rotors on the car. I've had them sitting in a box in the garage for like 5 months.
 

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Brakes

Jsut did a Bullit set on a buddy's 02. New red calipers look sweet, and the cross-drilled rotors did too. Hawk pads made a MAJOR difference in his stopping power.

Must say that brake upgrades are now the first upgrade I recommend on 99-04 mustangs.

tripleblack

BlueStreak03 said:
This reminds me, I need to get that set of slotted rotors on the car. I've had them sitting in a box in the garage for like 5 months.
 

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tripleblack said:
Too many folks buy these things, slap them on their cars, and fail to take the time to properly tune the rig. Boom. Now there's a destroyed motor....
And this is EXACTLY why people need to LEARN about cars because they supercharge them or use another power adder before they know what they are getting themselves into. Too many people do not realize how much stress superchargers put on engines. Which is why I don't reccomend any power adders, unless the car is not your daily driver. Sure, any engine modifications will affect your engines life span somewhat, but a supercharger is probably the worst thing for it. Even if the car has upgraded pistons, head, crank, etc the engine will still wear down faster compared to a naturally aspirated engine. So the question is, do you have the time and money to work on a supercharged engine when it breaks down, or would you rather have something more realiable? I have owned two turbocharged cars, and they were both a HUGE PITA. Not worth it in my opinion...
 

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the98stang said:
And this is EXACTLY why people need to LEARN about cars because they supercharge them or use another power adder before they know what they are getting themselves into. Too many people do not realize how much stress superchargers put on engines. Which is why I don't reccomend any power adders, unless the car is not your daily driver. Sure, any engine modifications will affect your engines life span somewhat, but a supercharger is probably the worst thing for it. Even if the car has upgraded pistons, head, crank, etc the engine will still wear down faster compared to a naturally aspirated engine. So the question is, do you have the time and money to work on a supercharged engine when it breaks down, or would you rather have something more realiable? I have owned two turbocharged cars, and they were both a HUGE PITA. Not worth it in my opinion...
There is nothing wrong with power adders. You just have to make sure the tune is right. They are a great way of making huge hp numbers out of small displacement engines. Just because your experience with boosted engines sucked doesn't mean everyones has.
 
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