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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Balanced or Unbalanced - What Crank Damper Do I Need?

Hi, I have a set-up that I hope someone may be able to help me figure out. I have a Ford Engine Setup 306 (almost short-block) that I bought from a guy a while back that I am hoping to completely assemble and put into my “weekend” street duty 1986 5.0

Here's a link to photos of the Short Block: Click Here

For the most part, I am trying to determine if this motor was internally balanced and if so what Crank Damper would I need to buy to complete the bottom rotating assembly? I won’t be able to pull all the other parts together until I get a good understanding of what the foundation of this build is. In addition, I will be buying a few other parts that I will list below for any recommendations.

What I do know about this setup:

  • The block is from a 1974 Maverick or Granada #(DADE-6015-AA)
  • Motor was rebuilt by a Builder that has passed away and the shop closed: “Russ Racing Engines.”
  • The crank (bottom end) shows some sign of being drilled, possibly to lighten it, and a section looks to have been cut out on one of the big crank lobes.
  • The block has been converted over to be a Roller Block. Question*(does the valley spider need some other parts under the tappet retainers or do the retainers just lay in-contact with the blocks valley floor?)
  • The Rods appear to be OEM, # (D1OE-AA)
  • The Pistons are TRW L2482 .030
  • There is a B303 cam already inside (not locked down yet) My son likes it!
  • Roller Tappets are there (not sure what brand)
Another thing I’d like to ask: Are there any oddities that I need to be aware of when dealing with a block that has been converted to hydraulic roller tappet?


MORE PARTS I NEED TO BUY:


  • Crank Damper (depends on balance)
  • Roller Timing Chain
  • Oil Pump
  • Roller Rockers
  • *Pushrods (length?) – I already have New AFR 165cc 58cc 7/16 stud-mount Comp 977 springs 155 seat 420 open 441 rate @1.850
  • Head Gasket for this Block – AFR 165’s
  • Gasket Set – Engine Builders
  • Timing cover
  • Cam Retainer Setup
  • 5.0 Electric Water Pump
  • Long tube Headers 1 5/8 coated
 

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I don't believe you can use that camshaft with a spider/dogbone HR conversion. With that conversion in a non-roller or non-roller-ready block you must use a reduced base circle camshaft. The lifter bores aren't deep enough. I know this applies to 351Ws, and I assume it applies to old 302s too...
 

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This is a scary one.
You have no idea if the builder knew what he was doing or not.

The holes in the crank sounds like he was trying to either give it a neutral balance or custom balance. With those mods, you can't even really rely on the casting numbers. If he didn't leave it stock balance, then the casting numbers don't mean anything since the crank was modified.

One thing that makes me think he didn't know what he was doing, at least on the cam, is that you cannot just use stock parts to convert a block to 'roller'. Converting a pre-roller block uses almost NO stock parts at all. Even the cam must be a special core (small base circle), so the 303 cam is totally incompatible with your block, and no amount of custom work will make it fit. The lifter bores are too short.

Converting your block will require aftermarket rollers with link bars (not the stock retainers), a small base circle cam (to make up for the short lifter bores), and custom pushrods.
 

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Converting your block will require aftermarket rollers with link bars (not the stock retainers), a small base circle cam (to make up for the short lifter bores), and custom pushrods.
For 351Ws with link-bar lifters a standard base circle cam is fine. Is this different for 302s :?:

EDIT: I'm pretty sure with link-bar conversion HR lifters you can use a standard base circle cam:

http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,25144.0.html

Not with the spider/dogbone conversion though. :nono:
 

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For 351Ws with link-bar lifters a standard base circle cam is fine. Is this different for 302s :?:
Good question.
Does the 351w use taller lifter bores?
Or does someone make short hydraulic roller lifters nowadays?

The problem with the 302 is the roller on the bottom of the lifter puts the hydraulic portion/mechanism of the lifter higher than the top of the bore, so it cannot get it's pressurized oil to function, a non-issue with solid rollers.

The smaller base circle cam puts the lifter deeper into the bore to get the hydraulic portion of the lifter down in the oil pressure supplied by the block. If someone developed a lifter that can function as a hydraulic in short lifter bores, then the small base circle will be a non-issue.

The only 351w block I have right now to compare to a 302 block is a roller block, so I have no idea if the 351w non-roller has tall lifter bores or not. :shrug
 

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I haven't looked into it for years, and I know if I could figure a way to make a short bodied lifter, I would. So someone much, much, smarter than me (not hard to do) has probably developed such a lifter. I'll have to look it up.

I'd almost prefer to use an early 351w block when I build my roller engine than the late model 351w block, just for strength. The small base circle stuff always put me off though. That, and the 2 pc rear main seal sux...
 

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I have a C9OE 351W block, and it definitely doesn't have the deeper lifter bores (I had a F4TE roller block for a while). I'm pretty sure the link-bar conversion lifters are designed to work in the shallower bores with a standard base circle cam.

Howards Cams Street Series Retrofit Hydraulic Roller Lifters 91168

Those are what I will be using on my engine.
 

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I have a C9OE 351W block, and it definitely doesn't have the deeper lifter bores (I had a F4TE roller block for a while). I'm pretty sure the link-bar conversion lifters are designed to work in the shallower bores with a standard base circle cam.

Howards Cams Street Series Retrofit Hydraulic Roller Lifters 91168

Those are what I will be using on my engine.
Well... yep. Those are definitely short.
That would be the way to go...

The are a bit high dollar compared to stock style, and I wonder what they mean by they are only for 6500 rpm or less?

I guess pushing hyd lifters past 6500 rpm is fairly uncommon anyway, especially when you are looking at 3.5" to 4" stroke.

I am still thinking in terms of 3" stroke, which loves the revs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hey guys thanks for jumping-in on my project. Sorry for not being here to volley my question immediately, I was doing the Thanksgiving thing with the family yesterday. Happy belated thanks giving to you all.

Any idea of a part list for the valve train convesion with the link-bar-lifter idea?

Or should I just scrap this whole short block and start over from scratch on the short block?

From what I am reading, this all sounds like bad news for me. Maybe not so bad because I haven't pushed too far up the parts buying process yet.

Now my head is spinning, :grinroll: at least as to what I do to salvage the situation. The builder was pretty reputable in the Ford 5.0 Market here if Hollywood Pembroke Pines, Florida area. He build quite a few motors over his 50 or so years in racing. His shop was: :Russ Racing Engines," in Hollywood, Floirda. Sadly, he died in 2010. My project was still in mothballs til now.

I have to think that Russ Racing would have been building for a "neutral balance" being that the kid I bought the motor from had pretty shallow pockets and I doubt he would be building anything too custom. I bought this motor one night at about 11:30 on a whim tip from a friend who found out about a bunch of part being sold. I ran in late that night and bought what I could, including this motor for not a lot of $$$. I didn't have access to check cat numbers, so I took a chance, hoping to make good on it and put it to use on the street.

I can't see any crank identifiers and do understand the concept that once altered, factory specs no longer apply. It seems that I have more than just that issue going on anyway; I do want my motor to be roller and thus will need to find some solution to that problem with this block set-up. The cam seems to be the least expensive in this hunk of metal so far, so I could afford to swap it out for something that would work.

I'm not familiar with "Link-Bar-Lifter. I'll do so research on that setup. Just wondering what that whole set-up would cost to get running $$$ If it is not too far out that may be part of my solution as long as it doesn't require me to go away from my new AFR165 heads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
OK, this is what I have just after as quick research of the Link-lifter-bars even though I haven't seen a photo of them to get my eyeballs to working on this solution.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/classic-tech/245644-1968-302-roller-cam-conversion.html

Im' going back down the rabbit-hole to see if I can come up with a nother cam grind similar to the B303 grind that will make this all work. My son is crazy about the sound of the B cam sitting at a red-light loping like a race is about to break-off! He'll be disappointed if I go too mild.

I'll be back...
 

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I followed your link over from the classic tech section. Don't know if it will help, but I have a 66 with a 1968 block. Roller cam and link lifters. Built by a local engine shop. Pictures are the cam card, link lifters, and rockers the builder used. It runs well.
 

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Just take the crank to a balance shop. They should be able to help you out fairly cheap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Just take the crank to a balance shop. They should be able to help you out fairly cheap.
Thank for the idea. The shortblock is already assemble so I was hoping not to have to take it all apart. It may come down to that in the end. It's just so much more involved. I would probably start the hunt for another motor if it gets to that point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I followed your link over from the classic tech section. Don't know if it will help, but I have a 66 with a 1968 block. Roller cam and link lifters. Built by a local engine shop. Pictures are the cam card, link lifters, and rockers the builder used. It runs well.
Thanks Hwyman, I am going to keep your setup photos handy. If I go the link lifter route, I will be needing a new cam so you card will be great to review for my size-out.

Were your pushrod in the 6.400 range?
 

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Unfortunately I will also suggest taking it apart.....just to many unknowns.
 
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