[mooseknuckle]

I have a DSS 331 long block. Im running a powerdyne supercharger 10 psi with a "f" cam , typhoon intake and edelbrock e street heads with better valve springs.1.6 rockers. I had to tare down the engine and im not going back together with the heads and cam. From what i hear the Ford letter cams are played out! I don't really trust the e street heads either! What heads and cams are everyone else running there 331's? keeping in mind that this is not a full blown race car! sCO_uhm.gif I would like to be 500 crank hp , just enough to keep up with the new stangs!

 

[Smurf stang]

Well what kind of power did it put down the way it was?

Without a baseline it will be hard to gauge 500 hp if you don't know what it was doing prior.

I got a buddy with a stock bottom end, GT40 top end and 10 psi and he is in the 420 to 430 to the wheels and runs really strong.

 

[Guest]

well;

we need to know if your pistons are flat tops or how much dish they have.

AFR heads are the gold standard. i would not run tw heads but others will. a set of 190 cc renegade's will easily get you there.

Around 12 lbs boost.

i would invest in a custom cam. hsing off the shelf cams will not optomize your supercharger.

you can always just get a Z letter cam too if you want but you won't have any bottom end.


you might need around 9.0 static compression

 

[89coupe]

AFR heads are the gold standard.

In your opinion.....

Good heads though.

 

[Smurf stang]

Everyone has their cup of tea I guess.

 

[Guest]

In your opinion.....

Good heads though.

AFR heads do NOT require special pistons.

Trick Flow heads can sieze the valve guides and their customer service sucks.

The AFR 170's with smaller valves flow near the same as fancy 170, offset valve, special piston needing TW heads.

The AFR 195 heads STOMP the fancy 190, offset CANTED VALVE, special piston needing TW heads.

If you want real flow just buy Blue Thunder or Yates heads. Intake flow 350 and exhaust 252 cfm. They will port to 450 intake cfm. Is that enough fer ya?

Engine Masters Challenge winner Joe Sherman uses AFR's. Hmmm...



TFS VS AFR HEAD FLOW UNPORTED

AFR 165 in 1.9 ex 1.6 flow @ .500 lift in 250 ex 185 @ .600 lift in 250 ex 191

TFS TW 170 in 2.02 ex 1.6 flow @ .500 252 ex 191 @.600 lift in 243 ex 201

AFR 185 in 2.02 ex 1.6 flow @ .500 in 267 ex 185 @ .600 in 282 ex 191

TFS R canted valve 190 in 2.08 ex 1.6 flow @ .500 in 270 ex 202 @ .600 in 281 ex 218

AFR 195 in 2.05 ex 1.6 flow in @ .500 287 ex 222 @ .600 in 308 ex 231
.

 

[89coupe]

AFR heads do NOT require special pistons.

Trick Flow heads can sieze the valve guides and their customer service sucks.

Im not going to get in a flow numbers debate. But the fact you think a twisted wedge head requires special pistons, shows you havent dealt with the head. ON stock block builds, the TW head will work no problems, with stock pistons. The AFRs can work, but you limit yourself in camshaft choice due to the larger valves being in a stock location.

And the fact you still think the TW head eats valve guides, shows you are stuck in the 90's.

Like I said, its your opinion. Doesnt make it true though.

And just so you know..... Trick Flow 190 11r head flows 292 @ .500 and 311 @ .600. So you can compare that to your AFR 195.

 

[Guest]

Im not going to get in a flow numbers debate. But the fact you think a twisted wedge head requires special pistons, shows you havent dealt with the head.

WRONG, there are also several people here on this site that have had to modify their valve reliefs in their non tw pistons due to insufficient valve clearance issues. One of these has been within the last 60 days, lol.

ON stock block builds, the TW head will work no problems, with stock pistons.

I know that but that's not what I was referring to, besides I din't run high flow $1800.00 aluminum heads on "stock" builds.

The AFRs can work, but you limit yourself in camshaft choice due to the larger valves being in a stock location.

Well since i am a professional engine builder, i woud nit run high flow heads and a big cam on ANY srock type cast piston, let alone ine that has a lot of milres on it, therefore, MY can choices are NOT limited in this regard.

Im not And the fact you still think the TW head eats valve guides, shows you are stuck in the 90's.

Wrong AGAIN, lol. It's a FACT that there have been recent valve guide failures on TW heads. Just because you are not aware of this FACT does NOT fix the people heads that have had this problem.

And just so you know..... Trick Flow 190 11r head flows 292 @ .500 and 311 @ .600. So you can compare that to your AFR 195.

And just so you know, not all flow charts are the same. The one I used were all comparative in nature.

Like I said, its your opinion. Doesnt make it true though.

I suggest you tell it to Joe Sherman.

 

[89coupe]

WRONG, there are also several people here on this site that have had to modify their valve reliefs in their non tw pistons due to insufficient valve clearance issues. One of these has been within the last 60 days, lol.

If they did, its not the norm.

Wrong AGAIN, lol. It's a FACT that there have been recent valve guide failures on TW heads. Just because you are not aware of this FACT does NOT fix the people heads that have had this problem.

So how do you explain the 1000's upon 1000's of engines that use the TW head, and dont have these problems? You cant blame the head design because someone set the valve geometry wrong.

And just so you know, not all flow charts are the same. The one I used were all comparative in nature.

Post up the link of where these charts are. Because, if you go off of the numbers on AFRs website, then most of those charts are from numbers gotten from using a larger bore as compared to what the others tend to use. That alone inflates the numbers.

I suggest you tell it to Joe Sherman.

Plenty of guys with tons of experience have questioned some of Joes numbers. No doubt he is a good engine builder though. But he is not the only builder on the planet. Plenty of builders can do what Joe can do, and do it without AFR heads.

I find it odd you automatically jumped into a AFR vs TW debate. Plenty of other heads out there, and lots of them do better than both of them. You just assumed I was talking about a TW. I dont even run TW heads. Ive worked with them, as I have the AFRs. They are both good heads.

Point is, AFR heads arent the best head out there. If thats your opinion, then thats fine, its yours to have. But to state it as fact is misleading and false.

 

[Guest]

So how do you explain the 1000's upon 1000's of engines that use the TW head, and dont have these problems? You cant blame the head design because someone set the valve geometry wrong.

I don't need to explain why not all tw heads have problems because i never said they did.

Post up the link of where these charts are. Because, if you go off of the numbers on AFRs website, then most of those charts are from numbers gotten from using a larger bore as compared to what the others tend to use. That alone inflates the numbers.

Here's the chart you forgot to say please for that I used for the above comparison. I have others.

Ford Mustang: Mustang Tech: Engine: Ford Head Information Center

Plenty of guys with tons of experience have questioned some of Joes numbers.

That mayb be because they are jealous. Engine Masters does not lie, and besides, I am 1 mile from Joes shop and can assure all the numbers I have seen from him are accurate.

I find it odd you automatically jumped into a AFR vs TW debate. Plenty of other heads out there, and lots of them do better than both of them.

read my post again, it memtioned blue thunder and yates. i guess i could mention n aero and others to but saw no need, because if you follow the threads the main heads that are talked about are afr and tw, therefore it seemed logical to reference the two.

 

[89coupe]

I don't need to explain why not all tw heads have problems because i never said they did.

Well which ones do? Like I said, you cant isolate a few cases, and say the heads have guide issues from geometry problems

Here's the chart you forgot to say please for that I used for the above comparison. I have others.

Ford Mustang: Mustang Tech: Engine: Ford Head Information Center

Im really speachless! That is one of the charts youre basing your numbers from??? I would love to believe those numbers. That means my Canfields are the baddest of all those heads! Which would further substantiate my post that it is only your opinion that AFRs are the gold standard. LoL

 

[Guest]

I never said the guide prob was due to geometry issues. read my post again without adding your own words to it if you want to see what it says. also you implied that there were no revevnt cases oif guide probs followed by saying i was stuck in the 90's for thinking that which you were obvioudsly WRONG about.


You implied that I don't know what I'm talking about if I think the tw and afr heads are the best. I then pointed out that you missed my comments about the blue thunder and yates heads. These things suggest that you miss a lot when you read which unfortunately I can not help you with.


As far as the chart goes, that was just for general comparison as i said. i have charts that give different numbers. i saw no point in posting 10 different charts.

 

[89coupe]

I never said the guide prob was due to geometry issues. read my post again without adding your own words to it if you want to see what it says.

Well whats the reason then? Your post was beyond vague about the situation.

 

[Guest]

well the last guy has had his head at trick flow for 6 weeks now and he has emailed them and they got back to him after several days and said they were still .looking into it. i suggest you cintact trick flow and ask about the probs and what they say the cause of the failures they had were. perhaps they might get back to you in 6 weeks or so.

 

[89coupe]

well the last guy has had his head at trick flow for 6 weeks now and he has emailed them and they got back to him after several days and said they were still .looking into it. i suggest you cintact trick flow and ask about the probs and what they say the cause of the failures they had were. perhaps they might get back to you in 6 weeks or so.

So you try and trash talk a head based on a problem you have no clue about why it happened? Every manufacturer has had issues with their heads. It happens, but you worded it in a fashion that is misleading, and made it seem like there is an inherent issue with the design. Which is false.

Where all the issues below AFRs fault?
Near New AFR"s w/worn valve guides - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

 

[mooseknuckle]

numbers with old heads and cam????

Someone asked where i was with the old cam and heads. I wish i knew my self!!! I put 69 miles on the dss 331 and a bearing some how spun, but that a hole different story. Im working with dss now on that! That Is why the engine is tore down. The heads that i used the first time was not what i really wanted, but the price was right at the time!
the pistons are cut so i can run trick flow if i wanted.

 

[mooseknuckle]

I WISH I KNEW WHAT NUMBERS I WAS PUTTING DOWN WITH THE OLD HEADS AND CAM! The dss 331 spun number seven rod bearing on me after 69 miles, but thats a hole different story! I just shipped my engine back to DSS ,so they can try to find out what went wrong and hopefully help me out.This is why im going with a different cam and heads.The heads i used last time was not really what i wanted, but the price was right at the time.I figured this would be the best time to upgrade! The pistons are cut to except trick-flow heads. I would say im bouncing between trick flow and afr heads.

 

[89coupe]

I WISH I KNEW WHAT NUMBERS I WAS PUTTING DOWN WITH THE OLD HEADS AND CAM! The dss 331 spun number seven rod bearing on me after 69 miles, but thats a hole different story! I just shipped my engine back to DSS ,so they can try to find out what went wrong and hopefully help me out.This is why im going with a different cam and heads.The heads i used last time was not really what i wanted, but the price was right at the time.I figured this would be the best time to upgrade! The pistons are cut to except trick-flow heads. I would say im bouncing between trick flow and afr heads.

Find a head thats in your budget. Head choice is not that crucial with boost. Youll be fine with a number of heads out there. Now, if at some point, you plan on going to a NA build, then go for the better head now. Or at least one you can grow into. Trick Flow has the market as far as having a head thats versatile. The 170's can be taken all the way out to 205's. So it can be used from 289s to mild 408's. But lots of heads will get you where you want to be, some just easier than others.

So whats the budget youd like to stay into?

 

[Guest]

for optimum performance you need to calculate how much dynamic compression not static compression. you need for the octane gas and amount of boost you plan to run. the more boost you run the lower your dyn comp needs to be. if you run lots of boost like around 14 your compression will likely be less than around 9 with aluninum heads on 93 octane. part of this is determined by the cam. . since the entire eng may be apart i might have them 0 deck the block. . cc the head chambers and the pistin volume. . special gaskets are recommended with a supercharger or turbo also. . another difficulty is cam selection . . many people rmake the mistake of running a cam that is bigger then necessary for a supercharger.

 

[Guest]

So you try and trash talk a head based on a problem you have no clue about why it happened? Every manufacturer has had issues with their heads. It happens, but you worded it in a fashion that is misleading, and made it seem like there is an inherent issue with the design. Which is false.

Where all the issues below AFRs fault?
Near New AFR"s w/worn valve guides - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

Now you are assuming and again you are WRONG again. You are also trying to twist my words to serve your own agenda and trying to disguise your opinion as a fact. It now seems like you simply want argue and have the last word. Well, I never argue and I actually do know why some of the TW heads failed, and it was definitely Trick Flows fault, so there you go.

Like I said, you call them if you want to try to get more info, but my guess is that their standard answer might be. "We never heard of such a thing.", lol.

You are also failing to acknowledge that 6 weeks with poor correspondence with the customer is an unrealistic amount of time for Trick Flow to keep someones heads and not have an answer as to what caused the problem. I also know the conditions under which this particular set of heads was used and the problem was positively not caused by the user and the engine ran at a constant temp around 187 and never, ever ran hot. It also had a mild cam with around .480 lift, spring pressure around 115 closed and 280 open and good non synthetic oil with around 1250 ppm of ZDDP.

I have no agenda against Trick Flow whatsoever. I merely mentioned some things to be aware of and you tried to blow it up into some sort of big deal for whatever reason, that's all. As far as air flow goes, they are amongst the top in their particular class along with AFR's, and imo, they are not junk heads.

There is no point in me commenting on this further.
.