I blame the poor sales of Ford, GM and Dodge cause of ugly car design and them banking on people buying suv forever. I wouldn't drive any of Ford's car except for the Mustang or the GT. The rest are butt ugly. The same goes with GM. The only great looking cars GM has are the Corvette and the Solstice. Well, you either love or hate with Dodge's cars. And yes, Toyota and Honda has plants in America hiring American workers putting together cars. Maybe its just me being bias against Unions, but the UAW aren't making things easy for the big 3 either. And if any of you study Economics, you'll learn that American cars in general are overpriced. Instead of the US government putting quotta on foreign cars, maybe Detroit should start building cars that American wanna buy. Thats just my 2 cents.

I think I'll have to agree with D Un4given. It's all about producing a product people want to buy. With companies like Honda and Toyota ever increasing the reliability of their cars, the big 3 aren't going to be the big 3 for long. Unions had their place in shaping our history for better or worse, but seems to me that currently they generally work against the free market, and artificially inflate prices to the detriment of their employers and us as consumers(gee, I don't get a contract as a full-time employee, it's all a right-to-work arrangement). Eventually those who are laid off will migrate to other parts of the economy or other manufacturers, although it can be very painful and life changing. And last but not least, usually when the Gov't gets too involved in a free market economy, it eventually just makes things worse.

My one cent worth(taxes took the other half!).

Couldn't agree more. When was the last time so many people were excited about a car as they are the new Mustang? The GTO comes out with performance specs that make most of us drool, yet when you see it you're completely turned off because it is so ugly. Ford figured they were on to something when they created such a buzz with the retro Thunderbird a few years ago, except they screwed that up by not completing the retro theme with the interior and compounded the mistake by putting in an underpowered engine and and underperforming suspension. They learned that looks weren't enough. Well, they learned their lesson and hit a home run with the S197. Now every maker is scambling to get out their own late 60's early 70's muscle car replica. But I guarantee makers like GM will screw that up too. Look at the new Camaro concept. Does it inspire you like the Mustang concept did? I'm a Camaro fan and I'm uninspired. Many on this board think it looks like a Cadillac and I agree.

Where is the Harley Earl of the 21st Century?

Oh, and by the way, stop ABUSING they nameplates of the past. How DARE Chevrolet put the Impala name on the thing they call an Impala. Same for GTO. I don't care if it does have 400 HP, that thing IS NOT A GTO.

D Un4given said:

I blame the poor sales of Ford, GM and Dodge cause of ugly car design and them banking on people buying suv forever...maybe Detroit should start building cars that American wanna buy.

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Buying American cars??? Support Americans?

I think it would be great if everyone in this country would buy American made products but we know that won't happen because of our diverse culture. Also it is getting increasingly more difficult to purchase products "made in America". As far as automobiles go remember when chrysler was making all those boxes they called cars in the 80's? Then the government bailed out Chrysler and they at least designed a line of "cab forward" cars that started a profitable market for them. (I never really understood what the term "cab forward meant) I think it is importatant for the big three automakers to keep a close eye on what the American buyer is excited about. Ford really made an impact with the new Mustang. But I think besides good looks the engineer ing and reliability need to keep pace with the Asian market.

American

My Pony's engine is from Germany and its Automation transmission is from France ??? Go Figure!!!!

I agree that the gov't should impose higher tariffs for the foreign cars. But the big three's biggest problem with "keeping up" has to do with the cost of pensions and unions. My wife belongs to the teacher union (I think it's the largest union) and it does her no good. Unions cost money and make the union leaders rich, and end up costing us all in the end. My wife hates that she has to pay dues for a job that pays the least out of all required Bachelor degree careers. (She is not teaching because of its pay - but she still has to make enough to pay back the $40K she owes from school and to "bring in" something after it's all said and done).

I think many of the foreign makes have the benefit as people see those as having better quality, and much is to do with the crapt Detroit put out in the 80's. I think the design of American cars are much better tahn the Japanese. I don't understand how anyone can think the Camry has a gotta have design.

I just wish people would be somewhat Patriotic and at least look at American cars. The union needs to give up alot of ground to help the Big 3 compete, the Japanese do not have the large pensions to hinder them. How much industry do you want to give up?

As Ford was a leader in the Industrial Revolution, it would be very sad to think they might not be around much longer.

Remember if if the Foreign auto companies make cars in the US, the profits are still sent out of the country. The US's huge deficit in trade will one day come to roast

I think it is all of the above, I used to work for the UAW but I am no big union fan, one of the biggest problems is they (auto companies) have paid almost 100% of health care costs, and that is a HUGE chunk of change. When things got slow, I had to sweep the floors, can you imagine how much that cost the company for me doing that?, because of union rules, they could not send me home.
As far as quality, that is a cop-out for the most part, I work with people who have never owned nor ever will own a domestic car because of what they heard about them, and not what they experienced. Back in the 80's, yes the quality sucked, but have gotten much better since then.
I am deeply patriotic when it comes to vehicles, I also try to avoid made in China crappola. I never have and never will own a foreign vehicle, you may say that some parts are made in different countries, another cop-out. Ford I believe manufactures and assembles most of the parts here.
I remember bumper stickers back in the 80's that said "hungry? eat your Toyota"
I think we need to support our own country (insert fife music here).

Classic Attitude that Keeps Big 3 Behind...

bigplayrayr said:

I think many of the foreign makes have the benefit as people see those as having better quality, and much is to do with the crapt Detroit put out in the 80's. I think the design of American cars are much better tahn the Japanese. I don't understand how anyone can think the Camry has a gotta have design.

I just wish people would be somewhat Patriotic and at least look at American cars. The union needs to give up alot of ground to help the Big 3 compete, the Japanese do not have the large pensions to hinder them. How much industry do you want to give up?

As Ford was a leader in the Industrial Revolution, it would be very sad to think they might not be around much longer.

Remember if if the Foreign auto companies make cars in the US, the profits are still sent out of the country. The US's huge deficit in trade will one day come to roast

Click to expand...

You and many of my father's generation have this dillusion that American Car Design is better then the imports. What denial. It is this idealizm and romantisism of American goods that pretty much insures the big 3 continue to put out crap. With people like you that continue to appologize for the incompetence of the big 3, continue to buy their crap, and continue to ignore the supremely better design of, for example, the Camry and Accord, your blind patriotism and denial only propagate and insure that the big 3 will continually produce cars people are wanting less and less.

LETS TALK ABOUT PATRIOTISM, SHALL WE?

It is UN-AMERICAN to buy [email protected] goods. It is VERY AMERICAN to buy the very best. It is UN-AMERICAN to buy most American cars and trucks. It is VERY American to buy most Japanese models.

So lets start being true and patriotic Americans...lets buy the best, and if that means that we buy Japanese, then so be it, because not to buy the best is NOT AMERICAN.

Lets keep the big three honest and striving by NOT buying most of their [email protected] reward their BS products with purchases is to enable their current slide.

Sure I too have a Mustang, and I love it's looks, and I love it, but lets have dillussions either...it is not refined, and there is ample room for improvement....much more so then in most Japanese cars...lets be happy with our American Mustangs, but lets have no dillussions either.

Are you to suggest that it would be the American people's fault of Ford went under? Did it ever occur to you that it would FORD's FAULT?!?

Why would you expect American's to buy BS products???

So Ford goes under and you blame the American People for not buying their products? What kind of dysfunctional strange logic is that?!?

Let's keep in mind that's it's REALLY only the big 2 now. The Chrysler products may be made here, but that is no different than Japanese and Koreans building cars on "our" soil. The Chrysler dollars go overseas too!!!

Why did you even buy a Mustang? If it is so crappy? Just because it looked good? Where did I say you had to buy American? I just wish people would look and give them another chance. Their quality has improved greatly since the 80's.

As the Design of the Camry and the Accord, I think they are unattractive. I think the Charger, the Fusion, CTS and the Chrysler 300 are much more better looking. I did not say anything about the quality of the Accord and Camry, I am sure they are very good cars.

lovcom said:

You and many of my father's generation have this dillusion that American Car Design is better then the imports. What denial. It is this idealizm and romantisism of American goods that pretty much insures the big 3 continue to put out crap. With people like you that continue to appologize for the incompetence of the big 3, continue to buy their crap, and continue to ignore the supremely better design of, for example, the Camry and Accord, your blind patriotism and denial only propagate and insure that the big 3 will continually produce cars people are wanting less and less.

LETS TALK ABOUT PATRIOTISM, SHALL WE?

It is UN-AMERICAN to buy [email protected] goods. It is VERY AMERICAN to buy the very best. It is UN-AMERICAN to buy most American cars and trucks. It is VERY American to buy most Japanese models.

So lets start being true and patriotic Americans...lets buy the best, and if that means that we buy Japanese, then so be it, because not to buy the best is NOT AMERICAN.

Lets keep the big three honest and striving by NOT buying most of their [email protected] reward their BS products with purchases is to enable their current slide.

Sure I too have a Mustang, and I love it's looks, and I love it, but lets have dillussions either...it is not refined, and there is ample room for improvement....much more so then in most Japanese cars...lets be happy with our American Mustangs, but lets have no dillussions either.

Are you to suggest that it would be the American people's fault of Ford went under? Did it ever occur to you that it would FORD's FAULT?!?

Why would you expect American's to buy BS products???

So Ford goes under and you blame the American People for not buying their products? What kind of dysfunctional strange logic is that?!?

Click to expand...

This is very true. One of the reasons I buy from Ford and GM.

Waxed'05 GT said:

Let's keep in mind that's it's REALLY only the big 2 now. The Chrysler products may be made here, but that is no different than Japanese and Koreans building cars on "our" soil. The Chrysler dollars go overseas too!!!

Click to expand...

Settle down a bit lovcom. Much of the quality you speak of IS your PERSONAL perception as it is all of our own unique views. Sure, the Mustang could be more refined, but I like that it's not... I like the non-quiet engine, I like hearing the road, etc...

BUT, the Ford and Chevy nameplates are NOT refined. Ford owns Jaguar and Lincoln which ARE much more refined.

Settle down, relax, and humor the views of our fellow Mustang enthusiasts...

Did you know that a Vietnamese gentleman was in charge of the 05 redesign?

lovcom said:

You and many of my father's generation have this dillusion that American Car Design is better then the imports. What denial. It is this idealizm and romantisism of American goods that pretty much insures the big 3 continue to put out crap. With people like you that continue to appologize for the incompetence of the big 3, continue to buy their crap, and continue to ignore the supremely better design of, for example, the Camry and Accord, your blind patriotism and denial only propagate and insure that the big 3 will continually produce cars people are wanting less and less.

LETS TALK ABOUT PATRIOTISM, SHALL WE?

It is UN-AMERICAN to buy [email protected] goods. It is VERY AMERICAN to buy the very best. It is UN-AMERICAN to buy most American cars and trucks. It is VERY American to buy most Japanese models.

So lets start being true and patriotic Americans...lets buy the best, and if that means that we buy Japanese, then so be it, because not to buy the best is NOT AMERICAN.

Lets keep the big three honest and striving by NOT buying most of their [email protected] reward their BS products with purchases is to enable their current slide.

Sure I too have a Mustang, and I love it's looks, and I love it, but lets have dillussions either...it is not refined, and there is ample room for improvement....much more so then in most Japanese cars...lets be happy with our American Mustangs, but lets have no dillussions either.

Are you to suggest that it would be the American people's fault of Ford went under? Did it ever occur to you that it would FORD's FAULT?!?

Why would you expect American's to buy BS products???

So Ford goes under and you blame the American People for not buying their products? What kind of dysfunctional strange logic is that?!?

Click to expand...

Ford lost a lot of clients when they would not diversify on the SUVs. I think SUVs were so popular with the american plants because they were considered trucks. Trucks had less safety features and in turn, less expesive to build.

When foreign companies started building SUVs, the emphasis was on safety and luxury.
I am sorry for the guys that are loosing their jobs because management did not look ahead and did not see what and why consumers were buying exports. MHO only. Open to debate.

:tongue I knew this would stirr up a lot of opinions. Bottom line for me, this is how I look at the car market from experience.

I have always loved american cars, especially performance cars like the corvette, camaro, mustang, viper ....etc... To me, these cars are not the bread and butter of the Big 3, they are just a chunk of change in their profits.

GMs big profit maker in the last few years is their Tahoe, Yukon, Escalde, Sierra, Silverado. The only draw back now, is that they are gas guzzlers, so they need to make them fuel efficient and priced right so they can sell more of them.

Ford's big profit maker is still the F-150, and i remember when they sold a lot of ford taurus cars, even thought the quality was not as good as the Camry or Accord. What happend??? Camry and Accord got smart and started marketing their cars for more value because of reliability and resale value. Plus these cars are assembled here in the US, and its cheaper for Toyota and Honda to make the cars in the US, rather than Japan.

D-Chrysler, I am not sure about them, but I think their jeeps and trucks are their best sellers. They are on the right track because most of their cars now are running on the 300 Platform, and this is going to save them some money. Even though they are also laying off 6000+ people world wide for restructuring.

I've always bought fuel efficient cars for my daily driver because I really cant afford to pay more for gas at the moment, and its pointless driving a full size truck, when I really dont need a full size truck. I have a Toyota Tacoma and it has a 2.4 I-4 that gets 25 with a load of stuff in the back around town. I also like the fact the toyota's resale value (have you seen how much used tacomas go for with even 100K miles or more? its insane) and the reliability factor also. But cars and trucks from Japan are bland in styling and borring, they are just drivers and cannot replace the Mustang or Corvette or Camaro when it comes to "very cool ride"

The profits go overseas, meaning you pay more taxes.

The biggest seller for Chrysler is the 300C a BIG AMERICAN STYLE CAR.

The biggest seller for Ford is the Mustang.

The Altima gets worse gas mileage then the Mustang. The Accord isn't that much better.

It's perception, not fact.

sincitystang said:

What do you guys think of Ford's job cuts? They are loosing market share to other makes, especially overseas brands, but if you buy american brands, does it really help out american jobs?

For example, my work truck is a toyota tacoma. I bought it because it has a 4 cyl engine, gets good gas mileage, has a high resale value and is one of the most reliable trucks in history. I dont need a large, 8 cyl gas guzzler from Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota or Nissan. This truck is not made in Japan, but is assembled in Fremont, CA by New United Motors, a joint plant by GM and toyota. They actually assemble a GM car that is exported to Japan under a Toyota name. I have a good freind that has been working at that plant since the mid 90's and is still strong despite of the tech sector jobs the bay area has lost in the last few years.

Another Example is the Nissan Altima, its also assembled here in the US in tenn. I belive Honda Accords, Acura TLs are also assembled here in the US that employ US workers.

One big factor of the Big 3 loosing sales is the fact that gas is so expensive and the new trend is comming off Large cars or SUVs to smaller and more fuel efficient cars. VW, Honda, Toyota makes cars that 40+ or more MPG, and in Europe, some VWs get 100+ (diesel engines) and in japan they have Diesel/Electric hybrids and systems that pre heat the diesel fuel for better fuel economy. The Big 3 auto makers need to step it up and make these cars their bread and butter to really compete with the japanese and koreans.

Click to expand...

Union Leaders are RICH? Have you looked at their salaries?

I was offered a union leadership position, and it payed $30,000 less than I'm making now.

Waxed'05 GT said:

I agree that the gov't should impose higher tariffs for the foreign cars. But the big three's biggest problem with "keeping up" has to do with the cost of pensions and unions. My wife belongs to the teacher union (I think it's the largest union) and it does her no good. Unions cost money and make the union leaders rich, and end up costing us all in the end. My wife hates that she has to pay dues for a job that pays the least out of all required Bachelor degree careers. (She is not teaching because of its pay - but she still has to make enough to pay back the $40K she owes from school and to "bring in" something after it's all said and done).

Click to expand...

Amen, man!

pcfrisch said:

I think it is all of the above, I used to work for the UAW but I am no big union fan, one of the biggest problems is they (auto companies) have paid almost 100% of health care costs, and that is a HUGE chunk of change. When things got slow, I had to sweep the floors, can you imagine how much that cost the company for me doing that?, because of union rules, they could not send me home.
As far as quality, that is a cop-out for the most part, I work with people who have never owned nor ever will own a domestic car because of what they heard about them, and not what they experienced. Back in the 80's, yes the quality sucked, but have gotten much better since then.
I am deeply patriotic when it comes to vehicles, I also try to avoid made in China crappola. I never have and never will own a foreign vehicle, you may say that some parts are made in different countries, another cop-out. Ford I believe manufactures and assembles most of the parts here.
I remember bumper stickers back in the 80's that said "hungry? eat your Toyota"
I think we need to support our own country (insert fife music here).

Click to expand...