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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I did a complete overhaul of my '66 green-dot C4 and while I was at it I installed a Trango Shift Kit, SK-4L. Puttering about close to home it all seemed pretty good except for an exceptionally harsh 2-3 shift on light or no throttle (downhill). With more power the shifts seemed normal. On the highway yesterday I may have found why 2-3 was so harsh? The direct clutch engages for 3rd but the intermediate band appears to stay engaged at least partially for up to a second afterwards. In other words, both the direct clutch (3rd) and the intermediate band (2nd) are engaged for a short while. Obviously the direct clutch wins since the car goes into 3rd but it struggles for a while until the Int band releases. Not good. All other functions seem normal.

I removed the shift kit springs and went back to factory ones but obviously can't undrill the separator plate (one .067" drilling). The shifts are much softer, as expected, but the 2-3 shift overlap problem is still there. A new rear servo piston was part of the overhaul but that is for the low-reverse band and would have nothing to do with the 2-3 upshift.

Is there anything that I obviously did wrong or that I should check?
 

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After reading Tom Hand's guide to the torqueflite (the model the c4 was patterned after) he indicates that some shift kits are not as good or precise as others. However he uses Transgo products as he feels these are the best. On the torqueflite fluid is applied to the release side of the front servo and the front clutch is applied. Delay in the kickdown band-release and premature clutch-apply both cause overlap and, therefore, friction material wear. So I am thinking that this can be adjusted somehow. I am sure the drilling of the hole larger is to apply more fluid to the servos for quicker action so that probably will not affect the slow transition from 2-3, in fact it should make it quicker. the release side of the servo is where I think the problem lies. I don't know how to adjust this unless it uses different strength springs inside the servo. Of course you probably know all this. just trying to help as no one has bothered to post.
Dave
 

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I would love to help, but really don't have a clue. I would check the modulator and governor before tearing back into the tranny. There is a C4 forum, in fact this guy makes the rebuild DVD's and is very knowledgeable, and I would post over there for help. There used to be a guy on here, Paul Stevens, that could help but haven't seen Paul on the forums for awhile.

Ford Transmission Forum
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
First off, I solved the problem and will describe it in a later post after I get my photos organized. Pretty scary actually.

Yes, I had hoped PaulS would chime in but he doesn't monitor the forum daily. He was last here a week ago. I did read many of his postings both here and on other forums to make sure I understood how a C4 actually works. Yes, it was a problem with the Intermediate band not releasing.

P.S. It had nothing to do with the shift kit!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It took 3 days of work and a cram course in Cruise-O-Matic design but I am pretty sure I found the problem. The Ford shop manual and Bob Mannel's analysis of Ford and Transgo shift kits were my main source materials. http://www.fordsmallblock.com/PDF/289-HiPo-C4.pdf

History: Engine came out in January for +20 overhaul. C4 overhauled at the same time with shift kit added. Both back in car in May but didn't get engine started until 9 July. With everything else in the world to do there are only 118 miles on the car since then.

Two weeks after the first start we had enough parts back on to take her on public roads: a trip to visit a friend 13 miles away mostly on high speed arterials and I-40. At the higher speeds nothing was noted to be really wrong but then, as with any major work, our attention was likely focused elsewhere. We were happy it was again drivable.

We live in a hilly neighborhood, 6-8 percent grades, so my 'local' testing of a few miles at a time is at low speed and up/down considerable slopes. This indicated something truly not right. Most low throttle shifts from 2-3 were as if a sledge hammer hit the driveshaft. More than crisp: BANG.

At 40-50 MPH streets and then later on 25 MPH city streets I noticed that the 2-3 shifts with more throttle were actually two 'shifts' and not one. The direct clutch would engage but then the engine struggled slightly and then something would later 'release' (the intermediate band) and the engine recovered somewhat. Even at other times it almost seemed that something was dragging in the C4. The engine never had a problem overcoming it but it just didn't seem right.

Tuesday I drained and removed the C4 pan. Fluid a little dark but murky and smelled half burnt. Enough friction material detritus in the pan to think I had driven 20k miles not 100. This confirmed something truly wrong. I have done maybe 5 C4s and the only thing really different this time was the shift kit. Not knowing where else to start I removed the 4 shift kit springs leaving an 'anti-balloning' plug in a converter passageway and the single valve body plate hole that was now .067" instead of .047. Removing the shift kit springs is easy; no reason to take the valve body apart except for the 3 valves with the changed springs. After spring removal it was only a 2 pound hammer hitting the driveshaft on 2-3. Better, but certain to destroy the U-joints eventually if nothing else.

By now I was convinced something dire was causing the intermediate band to not disengage - but what? It may have even been dragging while driving about not just at shift time. Bad servo? Was the oversized shift kit hole causing some of this? Yesterday I pulled the pan and valve body again. Performed air pressure checks on all the clutches, bands, governor, etc. I had done those before assembly and all checked out good then and still did. The intermediate band was free to move. It had to be the something in the valve body! The valve body came apart and I searched for problems. Did I put it together wrong? I analyzed the passageways (not easy) and determined that the hole I drilled is shown in the '66 shop manual on page 7-21. Near the center of the page, just to the left of the words "Throttle Modulator Valve" there is a narrowed portion drawn in one of the vertical passageways. That narrowing is the small hole in the plate that Transgo has you drill. It restricts flow between the Manual Valve (gear shift position) and the 2-3 Shift Valve. This will only make it shift sooner and has nothing to do with what happens AFTER it decides to shift. So, good, it has NOTHING to do with the shift kit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
After an hour or so of finding nothing else wrong I suddenly thought: I left out the 'puck'. Every C4 I have opened has had a single, flat cylinder of rubber in the upper valve body. Those of you who have had one apart will recognize this in the first attached photo. Notice how it fits very loosely in the hole and is not as tall as the hole. It usually sticks to the valve plate and pulls out of the body. I didn't see mine. Where did it go? Turns out it was still in the valve body but STUCK so tight I had to pry it out with tweezers. This is NOT right. I dug out my collection of parts from prior rebuilds and searched for what I had removed from other C4s. The 2nd photo shows 4 prior pucks along with the fat boy (on the bottom) I just removed. The 3rd photo shows how the fat boy (on the right) is also way too tall. Not only was it too big in diameter sticking in the hole it couldn't move up and down in the hole since it was too tall. This thing could not act as a check valve but instead it was a simple plug of rubber acting as a stopper. Its also in the circuit for the Intermediate band servo.

Instead of tearing further into anything I put the white puck in the valve body and put it all together for more road testing. The white one is made entirely different than the others but it came from a Ford rebuild kit I had used in this car in 1980 when I resealed the C4. Its different but then Ford thought that was what should be used; wouldn't they know better than anyone else?

BINGO! The problem is gone. The 2-3 shift is as smooth as the 1-2 shift.

The disturbing problem is how did that rubber puck get so obese? I am sure that it wasn't that way when I put it in there or else I would have noticed it both compared to the others and also in that it would have been wedged into its spot and not able to move. The engineer in me tells me that this %^&*%$# puck was made of something like neoprene which swells in oil instead of nitrile like it should have been. The seal kit I bought was the problem; they used the wrong rubber. It was a Transtar kit bought online but that is the same name of kits I have purchased from local tranny shops in years past. Like crappy repro parts; it looked correct but it won't work in the tranny. How many others of you will fall victim to this same problem? Being a packrat I rarely throw anything away so I had the 1980 Ford puck to use but that isn't how all of this should happen.

So it seems all I lost was 3 days of my time, unknown miles off the life of the friction surfaces in the C4 and another 8 qts of Type F. Beware, you may have the same problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Random notes:

The single hole you drill for an SK-4L kit has a negligible effect upon C4 operation if you decide to remove the shift kit. I was searching for an undrilled plate to see if that was part of my problem. I did not find any but then I didn't need one either. The shift might be a little different (faster?) but its hard to tell if there is any difference at all with just that single hole enlarged. The 4 springs do make a firmer shift but I have not gotten around to putting them back in. I want to drive this a few more miles an make sure its truly right.

With all the clutch packs and internal end play adjustments made to spec there is no sign of flare in any shift even at full throttle acceleration (stock 289 2V rebuild). Those adjustments also solved the major problem I had which was a rough initial engagement in nearly any gear.

Neither the vacuum modulator nor the shift kit I used has anything to with initial engagement of the C4. The modulator will keep it from shifting out of 1st gear seemingly forever. The modulator delays the shift, the less vacuum, the more delay meaning it shifts at higher and higher RPMs. On neighborhood streets with a hand vacuum pump on the modulator it wouldn't shift out of 1st without a few inches of vacuum on the modulator. The shift kit mostly raises control pressure which forces the shift to happen quicker. It does nothing for an idling shift from P-R, P-D, D-R, etc.

The Ford puck I used as .096" tall and .220" in diameter with a small hole through the center. The sticking, swollen one was .112" tall and .240" in diameter when I took it out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The shift kit was a Transgo, El Monte, CA. I see that I misspelled it in the original post. It had nothing to do with the problem only confusing my analysis.

The seal kit with the puck was a 'transtec' from Transtar, Cleveland, OH. Its a company unrelated to Transgo as far as I know. The plastic bag seal kit packaging I have from c1982 is similar with the same 'transtec' brand name but no mention of Transtar. In 1982 the package said 'Made in USA'. In 2012 its not so clear with a jumble of numbers listed and the note "All other parts of US origin".

When I was looking for an undrilled valve body plate I visited a local transmission shop. He had nothing but sent me to their supplier, Transtar, who has a local warehouse in Albuquerque.
 

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So, i'll add my issue to this thread ast it actually the complete opposite of what Ivy was experiencing. I have a Performance Automotive 26301 street/strip valvebody in my C4 as a replacement of the original green dot valvebody. Now, I have a "firmish" 1 - 2 shift, but a nasty flare up in the 2 - 3 shift. I contacted PA about this and they suggested that I replace the servo (with one of theirs of course). Now, here's where my problem is the opposite from Ivy's. When I'm decelerating, I'll get a nasty bang on the 3 - 2 shift. This was there before the new valvebody was installed, so this has got to be something else. I've adjusted the bands according to the haynes C4 manual, but it's still a problem.

I'll start a new thread about this if i don't have any luck in this one.

Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Dave,

The extra wear isn't all that bad. Its not like I don't know how to repair it. :yup: The really bad part is that almost anyone buying a new seal kit will likely get the same faulty puck and not knowing there is a problem with it may possibly burn up the C4. :nono:

Desdain,

With the Ford valve body, no shift kit, pulling the green dot COM into 'L' while coasting shifts from 3-2 so smoothly you can hardly tell it happened without a tach. When it goes below 20 MPH and drops 2-1 with a closed throttle downhill then it usually chirps the tires. Before the rebuild it did it with a BANG.

You may have seen this info (very looooong) and/or it may be at AFM but I found it here a day or so ago. About halfway down this page might be of interest to you concerning servos and flare (said servo is only used for 2nd gear): http://mmb.maverick.to/showthread.php?t=47348&page=2
 

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Ivy, man great info. I have the same Transgo kit in my C4, shifts are solid and no flare, so far I am satisfied with it. I installed this kit about 3 years ago when doing the build, hope it doesn't have the puck made of the same material as yours. This chinese aftermarket stuff is now a crapshoot.
 

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Desdain,

With the Ford valve body, no shift kit, pulling the green dot COM into 'L' while coasting shifts from 3-2 so smoothly you can hardly tell it happened without a tach. When it goes below 20 MPH and drops 2-1 with a closed throttle downhill then it usually chirps the tires. Before the rebuild it did it with a BANG.

You may have seen this info (very looooong) and/or it may be at AFM but I found it here a day or so ago. About halfway down this page might be of interest to you concerning servos and flare (said servo is only used for 2nd gear): C4 diagnostics and data - Page 2 - Ford Maverick / Mercury Comet Forums
Cheers, Ivy! Very interesting read. Looks like I'll pull my C4 and give it a proper inspection. I've pretty much missed the cruising season here in Finland due to an unfortunate fire caused by a cheap fuel system last year and I haven't had the time to get everything back in order (I'm close, but I want to do it properly and not rush it). I'll grab my Haynes shop manual and go through the transmission from A to Z.

Maybe this will also allow me to find out why this damn fluid leak is soooo persistent.
 
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