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Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone just got some questions for experienced cleveland owners. I will begin building and researching fitting components of a 351C 4V. It has been bored .020 over and needs new pistons, valve springs and possibly valves. My big questions are what piston types will fit with the huge valves of the 4v heads, what cams can 4v heads run with, and what valve springs are u guys running? With the large valves will the Probe flat top w/valve relief pistons (PN: PBP-P2379F-020) or the stock dish style (PN:1159-020) pistons work best? I also have what Ive heard as the "two piece valves" that some find unfavorable, by experience are these worth replacing? I basically need someone to tell me what they are running on a 4v cleveland so I can learn what works. I want to build this engine I just need some help :worship thanks guys
 

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Not sure what you mean by "stock dish style." My '71 had flat tops with valve reliefs that ran off the circumference of the piston. Are you using a '73-74 as a reference, or trying to drop compression?

Probe makes nice stuff. The founder is an old Stock/Super Stock racer. I'm not ducking the issue of piston clearance, but with so few people active in building Clevelands now you won't get a lot of people to vouch for piston clearance with this cam or that.

However, in general, I once learned that compression helped a 351C-4V in being wonderfully flexible and broad in power, contrary to those who know how to quote magazines. But today you can't use 10.7:1 with those iron heads too easily full-time on the street. So maybe that's a reason to go dished.

"Under" camming is a also good weapon, even with today's ramps. Pick the cam whose events you really like, then choose the one smaller for a Cleveland. Don't laugh, but I'd pick a Comp Dual Energy 265 for a heavy car, or at the other end, a solid flat tappet 270 for a lighter one with good gears. The first should clear easily, the second should be checked.

I wouldn't re-use any valvetrain parts, so use all new valves of modern manufacture. Cheap money. Don't let a local machinist sink the valves in their seats.
 

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I would also recommend doing some research on the 4v 351C, as the engine oils the camshaft before it oils the mains (if I remember right), check some of the mustang sites for like building a 351C in either the how-to's or tech articles, also if it is like the windsors it oils the rod bearings on every half cycle of the crankshaft. I always look for an engine to stay together, if it comes apart, its usually a boat anchor. Good Luck.
 

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Rex, you bring up an important point. The Cleveland was a not-as-bad example of what Ford did with the Y-blocks, i.e., give 1st priority to the valvetrain from the oil pump. Circa 1972, Ford offered a relief spring through their Muscle Parts catalog that raised oil pressure to whacko levels cold (just under 100 psi). Most shops and the successful drag racers instead restricted oil to the cam bearing by drilling and bushing passages, and installed a Melling high volume pump. Others did the free trick of carrying an extra quart of oil in the front-sump pan (which Ford sneakily did on the Boss 351 w/o using a different oil pan). Disclosure: since mine was built for a 5800 RPM shift point, I just used the latter trick. Clevelands weren't blowing up left and right, and mine lived just fine.

JC, what's your head p/n?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Not sure what you mean by "stock dish style." My '71 had flat tops with valve reliefs that ran off the circumference of the piston. Are you using a '73-74 as a reference, or trying to drop compression?

Probe makes nice stuff. The founder is an old Stock/Super Stock racer. I'm not ducking the issue of piston clearance, but with so few people active in building Clevelands now you won't get a lot of people to vouch for piston clearance with this cam or that.

However, in general, I once learned that compression helped a 351C-4V in being wonderfully flexible and broad in power, contrary to those who know how to quote magazines. But today you can't use 10.7:1 with those iron heads too easily full-time on the street. So maybe that's a reason to go dished.

"Under" camming is a also good weapon, even with today's ramps. Pick the cam whose events you really like, then choose the one smaller for a Cleveland. Don't laugh, but I'd pick a Comp Dual Energy 265 for a heavy car, or at the other end, a solid flat tappet 270 for a lighter one with good gears. The first should clear easily, the second should be checked.

I wouldn't re-use any valvetrain parts, so use all new valves of modern manufacture. Cheap money. Don't let a local machinist sink the valves in their seats.
Thanks everyone for the input. As far as the pistons go I guess I am thinking of later cleveland/modified pistons, I had a late 70s 400M with slightly dished pistons and I saw similar on Summit for a cleveland. Im just mainly worried about finding parts that wont slap those nice big valves into those nice pretty pistons or be too one sided in RPM powerband (too low end with no high power/ too high end with no guts). I currently only have internet at school or I would be researching like a fiend, might find a build book. As an overview of my end goals, Id like something like: streetably high compression, offenhauser single plane or split port intake mani, 4V heads of course, lumpy cam for high end power (for cleves I guess somewhere between 5k-5800rpm) but plenty of torque to spare, long tubes, 3.50ish gears and of course high volume oil pump. As for the heads I will be picking them up this weekend and with know the PN by then. Bear with me as Im no stranger to clevelands, only building one from scratch. Keep talkin cuz Im listenin :bigthumbsup
 

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Great, JC. For a reference, my 3600 lb '71 Cyclone base model with 2.78 low Toploader and 3.25 rear axle made 96+ MPH in the 1/4 and ran mid-14s, with one 13.96 timeslip mixed in that must have been a mistake. That was with 11.0:1 C.R. (skim cut on the stock 62cc D1AE 4V heads) and a mild hydraulic cam (290 adv. and .498 lift) to wake it up. Naturally, my usual advance curve tricks and a rejetted Autolite 4300. Wheelhop before Lakewood bars was breathtaking.

It'd be great to build with period heads, but let's wait to hear which heads.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok I got some casting numbers, first off I do believe they are D1AE heads, got a picture of the casting off one head thats hard to read, the other is more clear. Castings on the heads include (i think) D1AE, GA, OM7. The block reads D0AE-J, OC19?. The block is bored .020" over, needs pistons and a balance. Thinking about one of the COMP cam, lifter, spring and retainer kits if theyll work. Btw i like cyclones :bigthumbsup
 

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Wow. 0M7 is 7 December 1970 (Pearl Harbor Day). Consisten t with the D1AE '71 part number. March 1970 on the block, though.

D1AE casting was used on regular hydraulic cam pedestal bolt-down rocker engines and the Boos 351. Ford milled the head for screw-in studs for the Boss. You have the good, large port 63cc chamber head....on the upper side, you should see a couple large "4"s cast in also.

What an excess of riches ! Flat tops with canted valve reliefs may land you close to 11:1, so you'll have to get clever with pistons. Might want custom ones, which is not as big a deal as it sounds.

Wish you could find one of these, which I used -
351D-9424-D
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I like that mani. My top choices for intake manifolds are the weiand ex-celerator, some offenhauser piece, or stock 4V. Wouldnt mind stock since i can polish the runners and also keep a sweet stock look, but theyre almost as much as a weiand mani unless i can find one at a local yard, dont know which id choose.
As far as the castings go I know ive seen large numbers on the ports it would seem, wouldnt surprise me if it said "4" somewhere.
Btw I looked at my valves and retainers, and besides that they were recently ground, the retainers and and valves have multiple lock grooves. What do you translate that to? I know they have Ford castings on the intake valves tho.
Also, what pistons are you running? Like you said I think flat tops will push me up close to 11:1. According to wikipedia the 71 year 4V had 10.7:1 compression, does that include our D1AE heads? If so do you think I can run some cast dished pistons and run safe on 90-92 octane on the street? I couldnt get summit's compression calculator to work very accurately. If you can read links these are my piston choices: Keith Black/KB Pistons 1159-020 - Silv-O-Lite Cast Pistons - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Keith Black/KB Pistons 1146-020 - Silv-O-Lite Cast Pistons - Overview - SummitRacing.com
 

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We have to go to the horse's mouth (KB) and find out that dish volume. I no longer own my 351C, by the way. The stock 4V manifold worked fine on the street, as did that Shelby. The stock cast iron one is not far behind a FE manifold in weight, so I hope your back is strong. The D1AE head was sold on that engine as 10.7 advertised (that was mine), so yes. The 3-groove vales are what Ford used. Depending on funds, you may want to replace everything, including valves. But if the work is fresh, and you like the looks of the valve seats and valves, try them.

Here's piston #1. Silv-O-Lite - Better Pistons Since 1922

That dish is circular (2.75 in) at .060 deep; I get 5.8 cc dish. Assuming .030 in the hole, 4.03 bore, head gasket 4.08 diameter and .050 thick (typical graphite Fel-Pro), 63cc chamber, that's 9.5:1. See United Engine & Machine Co. Incorporated Check my work, it's late.

So not too crazy after all...a bit zesty for a 40+ year old iron head design, but you do have the good chamber. Might be OK on 93 octane!
 

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You may have to use a tool to cut the valve reliefs in what ever pistons you go with, as you need to check the piston to valve clearance, building a performance engine, is a checking, and rechecking process, miss anything and it could spell disaster. Good luck.
 

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If he gets frisky with his cam, yes. The canted valve reliefs on the pistons under discussion will be OK with anything mild like I alluded to.

It always amazed me how many posts on the Corral at the height of the 5.0 craze 1997-04 were "will this cam work with the stock pistons?" Why not go check it??? As Rex suggests.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The deck clearance is still eluding me, but i may be overlooking something. That cast KB dished piston seems like the one Id choose so far. And given my budget and the fresh grind on the valves I would run what I have, carefully.
I am also considering a cam kit very close to one of these three, since they include springs and alot of goodies:
COMP Cams K32-600-5 - COMP Cams Thumpr Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam and Lifter Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com
COMP Cams K32-241-4 - COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com
This seems to be my unofficial favorite:
COMP Cams K32-221-3 - COMP Cams High Energy Cam and Lifter Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Im going to try to hit some scrapyards soon and see what I can find for the car and engine. I need a few body panels. I have a 302 to stuff in the car for the time being but I cant decide if to sell the 302 stuff and try to build the cleve instead! :eyebulge:
 
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