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Discussion Starter #1
When are we 2005 owners getting a real external intake setup? We don't have one now. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Here's my take:

- CDC "Shaker" System: It uses the factory airbox, for one. More tubing=more heat and less density. But the real problems I see with this unit is that it is so narrow, and so close to the hood. This means that it is going to be right inside the Laminar flow, which to the layman means "non-moving air". Literally. In textbook laminar flow, the air does not move at all. Obviously there is some movement here, but it's the opposite of ideal placement.

- Steeda "Cowl Induction" hood: It's not cowl induction, it's cowl exhaust. That pretty much sums it up. Nice hood, but it does zero induction. It just provides a place for the hot, high-pressure air under the hood to vent into the airstream. In addition, the hood is venting in the exact same place that a "true" cowl induction system would be pulling air IN. That means the air trying to get out from under the hood has to battle against the high pressure zone where the hood meets the window, the same high-pressure area used by real cowl induction to get cold air in to the engine.

- WMS CAI: Places the intake in an area that is blistering hot. Their intake is still under the hood, but is designed to draw air through the front grill. Unfortunately this means the air must go through or over the radiator. Their "ram" setup has what may be a heat shield, but the angle of it would disallow direct airflow through the grill...it would have to come through the slots cut in the bottom of the shield, which would both restrict and change the direction of the airflow.

Most companies claiming "Ram Air" are using a buzzword. In order to have true Ram Air, you need to be completely above the laminar flow. That's why the scoop on a drag racing car is a foot above the hood, where the air is actually moving.

The place where the MOST static pressure is created would be an air dam. I'd like to see an air dam with an intake in it. Then you have issues such as duct length, and driving through puddles can be a highly expensive venture, but overall this to me would be ideal.

Thoughts, flames and questions welcomed.
 

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Jump on it! Put me on the list to buy it! I know plenty of people (ordinary guys) who get this type of an idea and make something and sell through web sites. If you have any ability to recognize this.. I think you can bring it!


Russ
 

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WOW
Hal900x, are you an engine designer for a major automobile manufacturer? You sure talk like one. Perhaps you are the "messiah" of future engine designs. Lets dig in here for a moment.
Where would you see the best place for routing the intake air? Remember to keep in mind emmisions and the most efficient methods for fuel management. Can't be too hot or too cold.
So the so called "designers" have it all wrong? The air delivery system is all wrong and you have the "ANSWER"?
I don't see "Ram Air" in any new designs, yet you imply that it is a feature much bragged about. Please elaborate! Which companies even advertise a product called "Ram Air" (other than GM and they don't count)? And how it accentuates their design.
Many racing cars do not have this thing you refer to as a scoop above the hood. Yes many "thoroughbred" race cars have a cowl induction air system but many do not, and those (sedan racing) win without it.
Forced air used to make a difference with old fashioned carborated engines, but with fuel injection and "street" applications I wonder why you think it is an idea worth pursuing. Computers control everything from fuel, air, cam/valve operations, speed, and whatever. What exactley do you see as a flaw (in the current designs) and why don't you work for Ford?
There....
You asked for thoughts and flames!
BTW I am just an ordianry dude, looking to start a conversation. I kind of get your point and agree. Let's see where we go.:thumbsup
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Otto Man said:
WOW
Hal900x, are you an engine designer for a major automobile manufacturer? You sure talk like one. Perhaps you are the "messiah" of future engine designs. Lets dig in here for a moment.
Where would you see the best place for routing the intake air? Remember to keep in mind emmisions and the most efficient methods for fuel management. Can't be too hot or too cold.
So the so called "designers" have it all wrong? The air delivery system is all wrong and you have the "ANSWER"?
Ha ha, Otto you are baiting me, but it's all good, I can take it! I'm no engineer, let me tell you. I'm pretty good with logic and concepts, but terrible with spacial relationships. However, I do think I could come up with a home-build intake and if I do, I'll post it here.

Best place? I think under-bumper or, ideally, smack in the middle of an air dam. Such solutions exist, although not for the '05. Lower to the ground = colder air, at least until you get really close to the ground. How close would be optimal? Don't know. One thing I DO know is that maximum static pressure is at the air dam, and static pressure is the kind of pressure that moves air in. It um...rams it in. Heh heh.


I don't see "Ram Air" in any new designs, yet you imply that it is a feature much bragged about. Please elaborate! Which companies even advertise a product called "Ram Air" (other than GM and they don't count)? And how it accentuates their design.

Here you go, I'll use the products I mentioned:

Shaker: "
SHAKER SYSTEM is now available. This Ram Air/Cold Air Package includes..."
http://www.classicdesignconcepts.com/catalog/itemdisplay/634.html

WMS: "
A ram air box that replaces the front rad cover is in the works..."
http://www.wmsracing.com/wmsweb/05hvi.htm

And of course I had mentioned the Steeda "cowl induction" that is not, in fact, induction:

Steeda: "
...the functional cowl induction helps make horsepower..."
http://www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/307-0011.htm


Many racing cars do not have this thing you refer to as a scoop above the hood.
I said Drag Racing cars: ZZZoooom!

Yes many "thoroughbred" race cars have a cowl induction air system but many do not, and those (sedan racing) win without it.
Forced air used to make a difference with old fashioned carborated engines, but with fuel injection and "street" applications I wonder why you think it is an idea worth pursuing. Computers control everything from fuel, air, cam/valve operations, speed, and whatever.
You're mixing ram air with cowl induction. I did not say that cowl induction was still big in racing, although some do use it. Ram air, on the other hand, is heavily in use.

What exactley do you see as a flaw (in the current designs) and why don't you work for Ford?
There are always flaws, but in Ford's case it's usually more about cost-effectiveness to the masses, and the sacrifices they must make therein. Those sacrifices, and the fact that I am just another newb, is the reason I don't work for Ford. Just kidding, the real reason is I make more money doing what I do now. :anianger:

There....
You asked for thoughts and flames!
BTW I am just an ordianry dude, looking to start a conversation. I kind of get your point and agree. Let's see where we go.:thumbsup
Cool man, keep it coming!
 

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- WMS CAI: Places the intake in an area that is blistering hot. Their intake is still under the hood, but is designed to draw air through the front grill. Unfortunately this means the air must go through or over the radiator. Their "ram" setup has what may be a heat shield, but the angle of it would disallow direct airflow through the grill...it would have to come through the slots cut in the bottom of the shield, which would both restrict and change the direction of the airflow.


The WMS CAI sits on top of the heat shield protecting it from heat below and seals against the hood, protecting it from above. They say plenty of of air comes in through the holes. Do you think the engine will be starved for air? Just curious because I'm strongly considering one of these.
 

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Hal, I'm very with you on those observations. I've got some engineeering background, and I have yet to see a system that impresses me.


As for the puddle problem, one good concept I've seen on some imports is a relief valve in the intake tubing to prevent just that. It's a round piece with an interior diameter that matches the intake tubing and is simply added into the piping. I believe it works on the amount of suction generated. If you stick the end of the intake under water, the vacuum in the tube skyrockets because of the weight of the water trying to be sucked up the tube. This valve is overcome and opens up, drawing air at some point above the water. I think last time I checked, they were about $50.
My worry with these is longevity, and air leakage when closed.

I haven't checked it out yet, but I wonder if you could open up the fake grate at the left side of the lower bumper and draw from behind it. Depends on ther structure between it and the intake.
 

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i agree with you on this topic. i have yet to be impressed enough to throw down a couple hundred dollars on what amounts to just a high-flow intake, rather than a cold-air intake. i know that they put out more power than the stock system, but they're taking the air in from basically the same place as the stock. all that's being eliminated is the box and the intake tube is bigger. i'm not seeing any cold air, however. not worth the $200 investment in my opinion. but then again, the extra power is nice.


"You seem like a decent fellow. I hate to kill you."
"YOU seem like a decent fellow. I hate to die."
 

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Hey, while we're on the topic, anybody ever seen insulating wrap used on the intake tubes of these systems? I always see miles of tubing running around the hot engine (especially on ricers), and I'm sure that metal tube is an effective heatsink.
 

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I have seen a few replacement hoods with twin indentations that look like they could be modified to have a way to pull more air into the engine compartment. I think it is the 3D Carbon hood. Also, if you really want more power and air, see this thread:

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45928

My only question is why Vortec & Paxton use an intercooler and the Saleen does not. A little off subject, but it does "Suck" more air that is! lol

Try this:

http://store.cal-mustang.com/cm_able/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=9825&CATID=25&CM_SA=0

I have the Steeda CAI with a Predator tune. Seems to pull in air just fine, but I do see your desire for better, cooler air charge. Of course there is always Nitrous.......
 

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wsd42 said:
I have seen a few replacement hoods with twin indentations that look like they could be modified to have a way to pull more air into the engine compartment. I think it is the 3D Carbon hood. Also, if you really want more power and air, see this thread:

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45928

My only question is why Vortec & Paxton use an intercooler and the Saleen does not. A little off subject, but it does "Suck" more air that is! lol

Try this:

http://store.cal-mustang.com/cm_able/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Product_ID=9825&CATID=25&CM_SA=0

I have the Steeda CAI with a Predator tune. Seems to pull in air just fine, but I do see your desire for better, cooler air charge. Of course there is always Nitrous.......

Hi wsd42,

Actually the Saleen blower does have a charge cooler. This is what makes the Saleen blower unique and very responsive with very little pressure drop. Saleen has their charge cooler sandwiched between the intake and the blower outlet. The liquid is pumped to a rad installed in the nose of the car using an electric pump.

The best location (in terms of static pressure), for a "ram air" intake would likely be the leading edge of the hood or where the valance's lower lip meets the top of the spoiler. In terms of practical installations "ram air" has problems for anyone who is not a moderately skilled fabricator because for ram air to actually work you need to have a sealed system and for appearance. But "ram air" can and indeed does add HP to a moving car if it is well designed and actually pressurizes or at least over comes the typical slight vacum of a stock or under sized intake. I had several Pontiac LS1 WS6 TA's to experiment on and the "Ram Air" option on those cars actually worked and if you modified them they worked even better. The problem was that the modifications reduce the intakes ability to filter out debris and water and this can cause problems if you live in a very wet or very dusty area. It costs too much to rebuild engines so for the average guy it may not make too much sense if you had to pay for the early rebuilds for an extra 10-15 HP over the stock GM Ram Air intake.

But you can achive a significant improvement in air inlet temps without much real work for those with good CAI kits with boxed filter designs as supplied by Steeda or C&L. These CAI kits are the only designs that actually seal off the hot air in the engine compartment and draw air from the stock fender inlet areas. Be aware that the C&L CAI kit has the issue of the cast metal heating up if the car is not moving vs. a composite or as the stock Ford design employed, a rubber hose.

The problem as I see it is that even with the stock air filter housing the inlet is largely open to the engine compartment air. A simple hose positioned in the existing opening of the lower valance/bumper cover and routed to the inner fender well intake for the stock air filter box will work just fine. This will bring the coolest ambient air available to the compartment where CAI cone filter draws air from and because there is positive pressure this cooler air will be the only real source of intake air once the car is in motion. You will have no water intake issues because of gravity and the fact that that we are not relying on a closed system. This prevents water intake and the nasty hydraulic lock (liquid water is not normally compressable), that destroys engines.

I'm going OT here but interesting if brake performance is important to you. You can use the same area of the lower bumper cover inlet to pull cool air from and direct it to the brakes. Unless you are going to change your calipers out and buy larger rotors cold air brake ducts and moderately higher friction pads are the cheapest way to improve your stock brakes under high performance conditions. All you need are a pair of stock brake backing plates and a piece of mild steel tubing as large as you can fit on the brake backing plate and some brake duct hose, some sheet or rod stock to use as brackets, a few clamps, paint and a welder or a place to get it welded. This is standard race prep for many classes of road racing car though some stock or unprepared classes might deam this as a brake improvment. If you race, autocross or whatever you should check with the tech body or local district tech inspector.

HTH
 

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Discussion Starter #11
SportsPix said:
Hi wsd42,

Actually the Saleen blower does have a charge cooler. This is what makes the Saleen blower unique and very responsive with very little pressure drop. Saleen has their charge cooler sandwiched between the intake and the blower outlet. The liquid is pumped to a rad installed in the nose of the car using an electric pump.

The best location (in terms of static pressure), for a "ram air" intake would likely be the leading edge of the hood or where the valance's lower lip meets the top of the spoiler. In terms of practical installations "ram air" has problems for anyone who is not a moderately skilled fabricator because for ram air to actually work you need to have a sealed system and for appearance. But "ram air" can and indeed does add HP to a moving car if it is well designed and actually pressurizes or at least over comes the typical slight vacum of a stock or under sized intake. I had several Pontiac LS1 WS6 TA's to experiment on and the "Ram Air" option on those cars actually worked and if you modified them they worked even better. The problem was that the modifications reduce the intakes ability to filter out debris and water and this can cause problems if you live in a very wet or very dusty area. It costs too much to rebuild engines so for the average guy it may not make too much sense if you had to pay for the early rebuilds for an extra 10-15 HP over the stock GM Ram Air intake.

But you can achive a significant improvement in air inlet temps without much real work for those with good CAI kits with boxed filter designs as supplied by Steeda or C&L. These CAI kits are the only designs that actually seal off the hot air in the engine compartment and draw air from the stock fender inlet areas. Be aware that the C&L CAI kit has the issue of the cast metal heating up if the car is not moving vs. a composite or as the stock Ford design employed, a rubber hose.

The problem as I see it is that even with the stock air filter housing the inlet is largely open to the engine compartment air. A simple hose positioned in the existing opening of the lower valance/bumper cover and routed to the inner fender well intake for the stock air filter box will work just fine. This will bring the coolest ambient air available to the compartment where CAI cone filter draws air from and because there is positive pressure this cooler air will be the only real source of intake air once the car is in motion. You will have no water intake issues because of gravity and the fact that that we are not relying on a closed system. This prevents water intake and the nasty hydraulic lock (liquid water is not normally compressable), that destroys engines.

I'm going OT here but interesting if brake performance is important to you. You can use the same area of the lower bumper cover inlet to pull cool air from and direct it to the brakes. Unless you are going to change your calipers out and buy larger rotors cold air brake ducts and moderately higher friction pads are the cheapest way to improve your stock brakes under high performance conditions. All you need are a pair of stock brake backing plates and a piece of mild steel tubing as large as you can fit on the brake backing plate and some brake duct hose, some sheet or rod stock to use as brackets, a few clamps, paint and a welder or a place to get it welded. This is standard race prep for many classes of road racing car though some stock or unprepared classes might deam this as a brake improvment. If you race, autocross or whatever you should check with the tech body or local district tech inspector.

HTH
Yep, the Saleen is a sweet design, in my not-so-humble opinion, and will be my first major mod purchase. Great post HTH.

Lots of folks assume I am demanding true Ram Air, but that's not the case. I was only pointing out that the solutions that claim Ram Air, aren't Ram Air. Me, I'd be happy with a good source of cold outside air moving onto my aftermarket CAI, or for that matter just providing some engine cooling. For me, it just bothers me that form rarely follows function...designs that claim a to provide a certain functionality, don't. The intake solution proposed by HTH is a viable one and may be the one I go with. I am not a master fabricator, in fact as I mentioned I am pretty darn retarded with spacial relationships. So even though we agree on the area (front air dam/intersection of dam and bumper) that would harbor the most static pressure, I'm leaning away from building my own intake there.

As HTH rightly points out, another good source of moving, cool air would be the leading edge of the hood.

Something like the RK California Dream might actually have some function, with the vents relatively close to the leading edge. This might be the hood I actually end up with, love the look. Of course, they too are incorrectly claiming "Ram Air" :\
http://www.shadrachmustang.com/images/mainall.jpg
 

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Hal900x said:
Yep, the Saleen is a sweet design, in my not-so-humble opinion, and will be my first major mod purchase. Great post HTH.

Lots of folks assume I am demanding true Ram Air, but that's not the case. I was only pointing out that the solutions that claim Ram Air, aren't Ram Air. Me, I'd be happy with a good source of cold outside air moving onto my aftermarket CAI, or for that matter just providing some engine cooling. For me, it just bothers me that form rarely follows function...designs that claim a to provide a certain functionality, don't. The intake solution proposed by HTH is a viable one and may be the one I go with. I am not a master fabricator, in fact as I mentioned I am pretty darn retarded with spacial relationships. So even though we agree on the area (front air dam/intersection of dam and bumper) that would harbor the most static pressure, I'm leaning away from building my own intake there.

As HTH rightly points out, another good source of moving, cool air would be the leading edge of the hood.

Something like the RK California Dream might actually have some function, with the vents relatively close to the leading edge. This might be the hood I actually end up with, love the look. Of course, they too are incorrectly claiming "Ram Air" :\
Hi Hal900x,

I'm going to have a look at making a sheeet metal duct for my Steeda CAI and vent it up in the fender opening to feed the sheet metal housing for the CAI. I'll probably do the same for the brake ducts and fab the backing plates too once the kids are back in school. I have to finish enclosing my garage, doing the drywall and cabinets after I install my new Tokico D Spec struts and dampers to get the Eibach ProKit springs under control.

Oh, BTW, HTH = Hope This Helps.

Cheers/Chip
 

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Hal
Great Post
And just to be sure I was pulling your chain. Got ya going!
It is odd that the auto manufacturers have (in this case Ford) come up with a super exhaust system for a stock car (why replace a great system) and continue to flounder (IMO) on an intake system that runs around under the hood (rather accepts) air from a clean zone. As you said we ain't designers but one would think a good design would grab clean "cool" air. Your idea of a frontal area (air dam) is great. Remeber the snow states and the low area could get snow....but that brings us back to the hood. And I don't want to replace that nice piece of aluminum.
Did you see that interesting design that put the intake filter above/around the radiator?
Oh well I digress.
I somehow think we are just guinea pigs for the after market folks. Let's sit back and wait.
Yes, I think there is a better way to bring air into our cool, cool engines. No gimmicks please.
We could discuss this for hours but dinner time
Now for some Maryland Steamed Crabs!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Otto Man said:
Did you see that interesting design that put the intake filter above/around the radiator?!
Think you're talking about the WMS Racing CAI that's discussed in this thread and others:

outdoorstom said:
The WMS CAI sits on top of the heat shield protecting it from heat below and seals against the hood, protecting it from above. They say plenty of of air comes in through the holes. Do you think the engine will be starved for air? Just curious because I'm strongly considering one of these.
It's premature to evaluate what they are calling their "ram air" enclosure, as it's still in the prototype stages, at least what we can see on their site. Originally I really liked the design, but from what I have heard and seen: It would have to be a truly uber heat shield because that is a very hot area it's mounted in. Why go to so much trouble to develop something to cope with a bad placement? The other thing is, it's angled upwards, from the throttle body to the top of the front grill. That's kind of bass-ackwards if you want air from the grill, but understandable given that you want to avoid the heat below. So the air comes through the grill, then up through the slots, then flows back down the angle of the heat shield? It just doesn't sound that great to me. Too many direction changes, airflow proximity to the rad, etc. Time will tell. As Otto mentioned, if you really want the best designs wait for the guinea pigs to suffer. Me, I'm doomed to be on the bleeding edge, it's just my nature.
 

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SportsPix said:
Hi Hal900x,

I'm going to have a look at making a sheeet metal duct for my Steeda CAI and vent it up in the fender opening to feed the sheet metal housing for the CAI. I'll probably do the same for the brake ducts and fab the backing plates too once the kids are back in school. I have to finish enclosing my garage, doing the drywall and cabinets after I install my new Tokico D Spec struts and dampers to get the Eibach ProKit springs under control.

Oh, BTW, HTH = Hope This Helps.

Cheers/Chip
I have recently been working on this concept, and I started a separate thread about it here:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45990

as this thread seems to have been focused on discussing the current aftermarket cai's already available.

~Moses
 

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WMS Intake

Something like the RK California Dream might actually have some function, with the vents relatively close to the leading edge. This might be the hood I actually end up with, love the look. Of course, they too are incorrectly claiming "Ram Air"

*****************************************************

Ive been thinking about getting the California Dream hood as well because I love the look. I also like the look, and what ive read so far, of the WMS intake. Furthermore, the vents on the California hood are closer to the front and it has the appearance that at least the inner halves of the inlets on the hood would go straight into the WMS intake box, seeming like a good combo. The California Dream hood itself appears to have a higher arch than the OE hood, could that affect the seal that the WMS intake supposedly has with the OE hood and ultimately any performance or would that likely be negated with the increased direct flow from the inlets? Also the slits on the WMS air box sit right above the foglights, would having the grille with the centered foglights provide any help by clearing them out of the way?
 

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Something like the RK California Dream might actually have some function, with the vents relatively close to the leading edge. This might be the hood I actually end up with, love the look. Of course, they too are incorrectly claiming "Ram Air"

*****************************************************

Ive been thinking about getting the California Dream hood as well because I love the look. I also like the look, and what ive read so far, of the WMS intake. Furthermore, the vents on the California hood are closer to the front and it has the appearance that at least the inner halves of the inlets on the hood would go straight into the WMS intake box, seeming like a good combo. The California Dream hood itself appears to have a higher arch than the OE hood, could that affect the seal that the WMS intake supposedly has with the OE hood and ultimately any performance or would that likely be negated with the increased direct flow from the inlets? Also the slits on the WMS air box sit right above the foglights, would having the grille with the centered foglights provide any help by clearing them out of the way?
Only problem is lack of water management. Unless you don't plan to drive in the rain.
 

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Me too have been considering the RKS Cali Dream hood... there is dranage and RKS say no problem... your filter can handle some water too, and it will drip down short of the filter mostly...??

But ram-air as in under pressure... I was told that's a dream that will not work... unless you force it... ;) Seen the double turbos where the fog lights used to be...?? Luvvin it!!
 

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Me too have been considering the RKS Cali Dream hood... there is dranage and RKS say no problem... your filter can handle some water too, and it will drip down short of the filter mostly...??

But ram-air as in under pressure... I was told that's a dream that will not work... unless you force it... ;) Seen the double turbos where the fog lights used to be...?? Luvvin it!!
That's good to know... But the hood is definitely not going to do any ram air. It'll provide colder air but certainly not under any pressure. Nothing I've seen so far would come close to ram air on an S197.
 

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Ram air is no good anyways, your heads will suck the air they can handle, ram air, CAI and what not. You can raise the ambient pressure ever so slightly at high speed but not enough to show any greater power increase.

But to have a out of the bay intake location sure makes sence as cooler air is denser and you will add power without adding mass or pressure...
 
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