Engine number location

1206 Views 12 Replies 6 Participants Last post by FoxChassis, 2 mo ago

johnf

Discussion Starter · 4 mo ago

It has been a long time since I last visited this forum! However, looking through the various old posts nobody actually provided an answer to the real question. It is "Where is the engine serial number on the 5.0L EFI engine"?. I have seen many answers where the writers gets confused with the block casting numbers etc, but for licensing purposes the unique engine number is needed in most countries. Some say it is on the back of the engine on the passenger side. But passenger side does not tell me which side of the engine it is, in my country the drivers side is the right as we drive on the opposite side of the road to the USA. I have found what I think is the engine number stamped on the top surface of the engine block. It is a flat surface on the left hand side of the engine when looking from the back above the bell housing joint. In the USA that would be the drivers side! I bought the engine as a rebuildable core from a local company and they supplied the unique engine number on the sales invoice. They sourced engines from a NYC breakers yard for the local constructers here in South Africa. Many years ago I asked a friend who worked for Ford and he told me the engine was originally in a Crown Victoria and was built in 1986 and was supplied in a New York police cruiser fitted with an automatic gearbox. The engine has been totally rebuilt and now resides in my GT40 race car. As I need to ship the race car to Britain soon as I am relocating, I have to have the engine number to get it through customs. They will not accept the paper sales invoice with the engine number, they physically need to inspect the engine and see if the paperwork matches the engine before they will let it go onboard the container.

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crjackson

· #2 · 4 mo ago

Greetings!

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I’m sorry, but I don’t have the answer either. Can customs tell you what the location is? They seem to know what they’re looking for.

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johnf

Discussion Starter · #3 · 4 mo ago

crjackson said:
Greetings!

Welcome and thank you for joining ALLFORDMUSTANGS!
Please read the Site Rules if you haven’t already.
We encourage you to complete your Account Settings.
If you need help posting, please read this FAQ.

We’re happy you have chosen to be a part of our community.

I’m sorry, but I don’t have the answer either. Can customs tell you what the location is? They seem to know what they’re looking for.

The onus is on the owner to point out the engine number to the customs inspector. I have had this many times when crossing borders with a road car. If you cannot show them the engine number you wait, as long as 3 or 4 hours or a day before they come back to you for a second try! In the meantime you are stuck in limbo in neither one country or the other in the customs zone. I think the numbers I can see on the pad on the back of the block are the engine numbers and comparing them to the invoice I can make out some of the numbers but they are very feint. It didn't help when the block surface was skimmed as they partially obliterated some of the punched numbers. It is suicidal to try and re-punch numbers as that will make the customs officials believe there is some malpractice afoot and they will impound the vehicle!

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Cobrajet67

· #4 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

johnf said:
I have found what I think is the engine number stamped on the top surface of the engine block. It is a flat surface on the left hand side of the engine when looking from the back above the bell housing joint. In the USA that would be the drivers side!

Yes, I believe this is where it would be ~~if there was any # on the engine~~. That # should be the last 6 digits of the VIN of the car it was originally installed in and they're on that flat spot behind the intake manifold on the left side of the car.
It actually wasn't common to always put a VIN # or serial # on an engine block in general until late 1967. Earlier years of Ford engines had no specific identifying #s and only had a simple casting # to tell you the basic engine family and size.

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johnf

Discussion Starter · #5 · 4 mo ago

Cobrajet67 said:
Yes, I believe this is where it would be if there was any # on the engine. That # should be the last 6 digits of the VIN of the car it was originally installed in and they're on that flat spot behind the intake manifold on the left side of the car.
It actually wasn't common to always put a VIN # or serial # on an engine block in general so a Ford engine may not have one. Many years of Ford engines had no specific identifying #s and only had a simple casting # to tell you the basic engine family and size.

That is interesting information. In European countries and others the engine number is a much longer series of letters and numbers. This gives details of the engine type, swept volume, plant it was manufactured in plus country and finally a sequential number identifying the actual engine. The licensing authorities and the police use these engine numbers to detect stolen parts. If you swap out an engine you have to get the vehicle details updated on the registration certificate. Any law enforcement officer has the right to stop you and inspect the engine and chassis number as part of their daily routine work. Border custom officers always look at engine and chassis numbers when a vehicle moves across a border. You have to be in possession of the registration document when you cross a border. This helps to reduce the passage of stolen vehicles being moved out of a country. It seems the USA is not as vigilant in these matters?

On this engine the flat pad behind the left hand cylinder bank is partially obscured by the intake manifold. I cannot see the #HH which is given on the sales invoice but I can make out the last few numbers, although they are now pretty faint as the block surfacing partially wiped them out. I hope the customs official will accept this as to see the whole thing would mean removing the intake manifold at the point of loading into the shipping container.

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Cobrajet67

· #6 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

I guess the USA has looser regulations on manufacturers stamping their parts. It wouldn't surprise me though as the EU usually has a lot more regulations in many sectors protecting consumers from harm. I know lots of stolen cars are taken and shipped all over the world here. I've read more than one story of even when the police know there's a car sitting in a shipyard lot waiting to be loaded onto a ship(GPS tracking by the car owner) they won't bother to go retrieve it. It's a whole entire industry here. Corruption and indifference are the problems with no one willing to do anything to stop it either at the funding level or sometimes even the police themselves. It's actually a sad situation that causes insurance and car prices to balloon to the high levels that we have now.
Here in the USA I know many/most engines didn't have any serialization #s on them until at least late 1967 including small block Ford 289, 302, 351W engines. ~~I believe even now there are only simple serialization decals on the valve cover on more modern engines without any stampings on the actual engine block.~~

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crjackson

· #7 · 4 mo ago

Okay guys, this is the wrong place to discuss Govt. Corruption, negligence and other social issues or controversial topics.

Get back on the core topic of finding the engine# location.

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CA65FB

· #8 · 4 mo ago

You tell ‘em CR!! This is a long discussed myth, but there actually is NO serial numbers on early Ford engines. That’s right, there’s no such thing as “numbers matching” for early Fords, because they did not serialize their blocks or match them to a chassis VIN until much later (diehard Ford guys might be able to tell you when). It was whatever engine came off the line for whichever car it was destined for. The blocks themselves had casting numbers and date numbers, and that’s the closest way to tell (if it’s within range of your chassis build date, and before the ship date) it’s a “pretty good” chance it came original on your car tho it might never be confirmed unless it was serialized some other way.

it’s likely you were told your block came from a police interceptor because they are highly sought after, but those did not even come into production until 1992. If a casting number is what you’re looking for, the mid 80’s blocks are usually casted into a flat area right above the starter, facing down. Unfortunately you usually have to remove the starter to see it, and because of where it is, it’s usually caked with oil dirt and road grime.

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Cobrajet67

· #9 · 4 mo ago

Here in the USA, when someone says numbers matching they're usually just referring to the correct date range of parts and correct parts for the year of vehicle. At a car show/event a concours judging scenario would usually necessitate that the types of parts on the car are within a generally accepted date range right before the production date of the car. Blocks will always a have a casting date # on it along with an engineering #.
However, in the early/mid 1960s some cars like most with K-code 289 engines will actually have a full VIN stamped on the engine that matches the car's VIN. Though unless it was a high performance/part time racing car no VIN will be present on the engine or any other major parts like the heads, transmissions, etc.
After looking into this it turns out that partial VINs will be stamped somewhere on all blocks starting in late 1967. Ford began stamping partial VIN information on production engine blocks to comply with Title 49, United States Code, Subtitle VI, Part C, Chapter 331 (effective January 1, 1968). The only exceptions to this will be factory service blocks to replace a factory installed block or Ford SVO/Racing blocks. Cylinder Block | Mustang 428 Cobra Jet Registry
It probably wasn't until later in the 1990s that full VIN #s(like on valve cover decals) were typically put on engines somewhere but the partial VIN stampings will always be there regardless.

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johnf

Discussion Starter · #10 · 4 mo ago

Cobrajet67 said:
Here in the USA, when someone says numbers matching they're usually just referring to the correct date range of parts and correct parts for the year of vehicle. At a car show/event a concours judging scenario would usually necessitate that the types of parts on the car are within a generally accepted date range right before the production date of the car. Blocks will always a have a casting date # on it along with an engineering #.
However, in the early/mid 1960s some cars like most with K-code 289 engines will actually have a full VIN stamped on the engine that matches the car's VIN. Though unless it was a high performance/part time racing car no VIN will be present on the engine or any other major parts like the heads, transmissions, etc.
After looking into this it turns out that partial VINs will be stamped somewhere on all blocks starting in late 1967. Ford began stamping partial VIN information on production engine blocks to comply with Title 49, United States Code, Subtitle VI, Part C, Chapter 331 (effective January 1, 1968). The only exceptions to this will be factory service blocks to replace a factory installed block or Ford SVO/Racing blocks. Cylinder Block | Mustang 428 Cobra Jet Registry
It probably wasn't until later in the 1990s that full VIN #s(like on valve cover decals) were typically put on engines somewhere but the partial VIN stampings will always be there regardless.

Thanks for that information. It seems that engine numbers and tracing stolen parts was not a high priority in the USA. This engine I know is a 1986 and through tracing the engine number we pinned down what vehicle it was used in. In engines build for racing a new block is usually not a first choice! BMW, for example, when it came to make the 1.5 litre turbo Formula 1 engines in days gone by sourced many 3 series 4-cylinder engines from a local scrap yard. Although this seems crazy there is a very good reason for going this route. The engines had done many thousands of heat cycles and cast iron gets better with lots of heat cycles. Having stripped and examined the blocks, selecting the best candidates, they then left them out in the weather for 3 to 6 months before they started machining. This is also to toughen up the cast iron blocks and is commonly used in new production engines using cast iron or forged steel parts. The rust makes for a tougher component and de-stresses the material.

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Cobrajet67

· #11 · 4 mo ago

johnf said:
Thanks for that information. It seems that engine numbers and tracing stolen parts was not a high priority in the USA.

Actually, that's not true. I corrected myself and updated information in my last post. The USA mandated that manufacturers put partial VIN #s on engine blocks starting Jan 1, 1968 so from late 1967 onwards these #s can be found on American engines.

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jon.young40

· #12 · 2 mo ago

My engine numbers were under the starter. Had to remove that sucker to see them. Found out my 302 was NOT the original, but from a ‘73 Torino

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FoxChassis

· #13 · 2 mo ago

Partial VIN is stamped on the flat, machined pad behind the lower/intake manifold.

https://www.allfordmustangs.com/attachments/302blockvin-jpg.81654/

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