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Octane boost will over time coat the o2 sensors and give incorrect readings.

Another really big aspect to quality of fuels is the pipeline(s) that connects your locality with the refinery. In our area there are 3 pipelines coming into town and all the retailers use the same lines. All grades and all companies use the same pipes. At the origin they insert these really big plugs to separate fuel grades and the various supplier companies. But as you would expect there is a lot if spillage/leakage between grades and suppliers.

Next time you see a fuel delivery truck at your favorite station ask how the fuel is delivered to your town. I use to live in a town where Shell Oil had its own pipes running from their refinery to our storge facility. That gave excellant product control. But the further away you are to the refinery then the companies use shared pipelines to keep costs down.
 

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I keep my cars for a very long time. I sold my 1989 LX 5.0 in 2000 with 215 thousand miles and still running strong. It was a great car. The best I ever had. I do not think this one is going to go the distance. The car is bone stock and I intend to keep it that way. I also intend to continue using it as my everyday transportation vehicle, but how long can I expect those soft components to withstand this persistent detonation? It may only happen for 1/2 second or so, but when it happens 60 or 80 times a day commuting to work, common sense tells me that this will add up over time. I encourage everyone with a stock GT to fill up with Ford's recommended BP 87 octane, and then take a nice relaxing drive with their radio off and just listen to that engine, particularly on upshifts above 2500 RPM. I would like to hear how people feel about how their cars sound.
 

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Rainman - I recently flashed in an SCT-JLT intake 87 octane tune, and haven't noticed the rattle anymore. Of course, whether this is due to the increased (cooler) air from the intake giving a denser charge, or the tune being better overall, or the fact that it's too cold to drive with the windows down, i couldn't say...

An engineer friend of mine had the same kind of issue with his 04 Chevy truck, and was told by a GM engineer that it's normal because "modern" engines are tuned to run on the ragged ege, mostly for mileage. He said they attempted to tune it out in factory development, but mileage tanked.
I think that Ford was on the edge with 300hp on 87, and cheaper gas (like I run-Racetrack, usually) puts it just at the limit. I think the aftermarket tune may run slightly safer limits since they know the user will run it hard, and gas mileage is less of an issue for the performance buyer.

I guess the final word for me is, since I retuned it, I may be sol on warranty, anyway.:rolleyes:

good luck with the pursuit of ford.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I wouldn't hesitate to do an aftermarket tune, if not for warranty. I may still do it anyway...
 

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zman99 said:
I keep my cars for a very long time. I sold my 1989 LX 5.0 in 2000 with 215 thousand miles and still running strong. It was a great car. The best I ever had. I do not think this one is going to go the distance. The car is bone stock and I intend to keep it that way. I also intend to continue using it as my everyday transportation vehicle, but how long can I expect those soft components to withstand this persistent detonation? It may only happen for 1/2 second or so, but when it happens 60 or 80 times a day commuting to work, common sense tells me that this will add up over time. I encourage everyone with a stock GT to fill up with Ford's recommended BP 87 octane, and then take a nice relaxing drive with their radio off and just listen to that engine, particularly on upshifts above 2500 RPM. I would like to hear how people feel about how their cars sound.
I agree with you, which is why 1) I run 91 and 2) I have a tune that reduces the timing. If you want your car to last, and Ford won't step up, then put better gas in it. Like I said before, with a tune and 91, I have NEVER heard my car ping or knock....
 

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ummm after reading Timemachines post (wow,btw) I feel the need to clarify. what I was experiencing sounded like valve rattle. I've heard ping and knock in older engines, and this didn't sound like that. Of course, this is the first aluminum block I've run, so maybe I'm misinterpreting. Or, I could be highly confused from day one. not unusual.
 

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fordgrl99 said:
Wow! After all of that, I have a question. Instead of paying big bucks for the premium gas, what about just adding octane boost? It's what I do for my 1966 coupe and has worked fine so far (since it was originally built for leaded fuel). No problems with the GT, yet, so I ask because my truck has really started knocking lately (of course) at cold starts until it warms up some. I'm wondering if it's just the mileage on the truck (111,000), or the fuel I'm running. My dad suggested just adding a quart of Slick 50 next time I change the oil, or next time it needs a quart; and to add some fuel-injector cleaner....
glad you guys enjoyed my first post on this forum.

ps fordgrl99 hand over the car and no one gets hurt (eagerly awaiting delivery of an almost identical copy of yours)

octane boosters if actualy calculated for the increases it provides often far exceed the costs of a better grade of gas. watch out for octane boosters that claim 2 point boosts from a little 375 ml bottle often the fine print indicates a 0.2 point boost. there is plent of info on making your own high test fuels using various combinations of lubricants and arromatics such as benzine and atf. if you look at the volumes required to turn say 94 into 96 it is far higher than the 374 ml super duper octane booster bs that is at the local speed shop. again back in the day before the complete phase out you could get 104 real lead which was exactly that and gave you the protection that lead did. the purpose of lead was not only to reduce engine ping but it also had the side effect of lubricating and protecting the exhaust valve seat of the engine allowing high valve and cyl temps. when you run unleaded fuel in an older car that has never had a valve job / guides hardend seats... eventualy the lead coating will be gone and the result is that the valves actualy sink into the head as the seat wears. hardend seats prevent this.
if your stang has never been cracked and you realy love it drop on some modern heads or get the old ones done cause it will self destruct eventualy cracking the chambers in most cases.

onto your truck the cold knock is probably not a ping issue if the motor has been run hard and lets be honest what small block pickup hasnt. the knock is probably a sloppy wrist pin on a cylinder knocking a bit till the thjing heats up and the tolerances tighten. a buddys cougar did this with absolute regularity. give the slick 50 a try or any other gorrila snot that will put a couting on the parts and give it a highway bag to blow out any carbon to be sure.

zman any detination is not realy good. what ford and ultraclyde's ugggg chev friend are considering is that under normal conditions the ping issues do not create significant enough wear and problems to interfere with the engines operation during its expected lifetime. what is that? warranty + 1 mile.....keep this in mind. fords concern is most bang for the buck while maintianing an acceptable service window. that and selling you your next new car. the thing will make 450 horse if you tweak it hard enough but it may only last 100 miles right soo ford gives it the 100,000km tune and away they go. now if you consider that modern fuels dont screw up oil, rings and other components have improved etc. our engines last a hell of alot longer than a 60 muscle car before a freshening is required. man 75,000 miles on a car from the 60's and the motor was out bored reringed new slugs the whole bit. or it was mostly junk.


rainman flash it back before taking her in for service and no warranty issues with a tune.

psfracer if its got no ping push up the timing till it does then back it off a degree or 2. using high test and pulling back the timing is losing available power. nothing wrong with running on the edge as long as you dont jump over right. squeeze out another coupkel hundreths. if you have been dyno tuned for the fuel that is exactly what has been done.

00vert54x good post on the pipelines. not something i had considered living in refineryville alberta. out of the cracker and into the station pump across the street.
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thanks all for the space to do these long posts. this has to be one of the hardest subjects to deal with as so many variables are present, each motor is unique in its requirments, fuels is blended from different stocks.. different different different.

anyways a tune that runs great in cool weather may ping like a ***** when its hot and humid cause the hot ambient air going into the engine gets even hotter when compressed that would compared to a cooler air charge (hence intercooling turbos which are compressors) bingo ping.

cool day ambient air 15 deg compression heating increase 100 deg = total 115 no ping. hot day 30 deg air 100 deg compression heating 130 deg to hot preignition. very fuzzy subject indead

man i love cars but suspect they may be a compulsion ........


TimeMachine:kooky:
 

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TimeMachine-

Thanks! Your input is most helpful. I would like to ask you a question. Since I intend to keep my car bone stock, use it as my everyday car (16 to 18 thousand miles per year) and would like it to live to see 150+ thousand miles, and would like to have each and every one of the 300 horses I paid for, what is my best option? In southeastern Pa, I have three octane options, 87, 89, or 93. I have a statement in writing from Fords service center that states there is a nationwide problem with 87 octane gasoline, where it is really NOT 87 octane at all, but somewhat lower, so I should use 89 octane. The Ford engineer said he wished They never said that because the engine is not designed for 89 octane. He noted that my engine, which had 7500 miles at the time already had enough carbon buildup that they felt it necessary to shoot some kind of cleaner into it and let it sit overnight. He blamed this carbon buildup on the experimental tank loads of 89 and 93 octane gasoline I used to determine if I could make the knock go away, which the 93 octane did for the most part. If you are like me and read your owners manual cover to cover, you would have noticed the section where they explained the best speeds to upshift your car for fuel economy. If you actually tried this, like I did, you would also notice that to upshift as recommended is smothering to the engine and keeps the RPM's so low that I can't see how carbon buildup would not be a problem no matter what kind of fuel you use. Anyway, given the expectations I have for my car, what is my best option? How can I get Ford to say yes to running premium fuel? Cost is no option. I don't care if it is 30 cents more a gallon. My car simply sounds better on premium (not pingy). Why do you think Ford is being so stubborn on this issue? Why do you think they view carbon buildup as a greater threat than the destruction of engine components.
 

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Ive only got 200 on mine, second tank...tried different station as first fillup puked all over, second was no better- but second tank has a momentary knock if shifted at lower rpms( I like hearing it rev, so have been shifing at higher than economical anyways). I'd say a 'knock' over a ping as its got that 'gravel in the motor' noise for a split second...my bbc used to ping a lot, just a mild rattle, would just back off the timing a tad in warm weather...this is a knock- maybe the aluminum motor is a bit louder than an iron bigblock, but I definitely wouldnt call it pinging or mild. It sounds to me like the motor is WAY lean or WAY advanced, but just for a split second right at throttle opening- I cant count that fast, but bet the knock aint more than a handful of firings, and only if shifting at lower speeds, especially if hitting third and stepping on throttle more than 'ever so slowly'. The instant the RPM starts to pick up you can tromp it without ever hearing the knock, so I really dont think its fuel so much as flawed tune.
I dont think the short duration would hurt much like pistons/valves can get from lengthy pinging, but especially on an aluminum motor, I would worry very much about head gaskets. I really dont think its gas related at all, as it goes away almost as soon as the engine even thinks about pulling, and from there you can tromp on it and it dont do it anymore. Perhaps knock sensor pulls timing back that quickly(so higher octane might eliminate it for the 'instant'), but as engine is fine under power with 87, the 89+ should not be required to mask a tuning issue. I'd like to see a tune that dont advance it so friggin far at lifting the pedal at shift time...the rpm drop is so severely delayed there is no need to pull the timing up like that anyway- I think it takes near 4 seconds to throttle down...
at a minimum ecm should 'learn' the knock threshold and NEVER knock that hard more than once per fillup if you get bad fuel- it could incrementally advance a degree or so until light knock is detected occasionally in effort to maximize mileage, but it sure sounds to me like its got a dozen degrees extra all dumped in at once...
Personally I'm hoping to see Ford start offering 'tunes' that wont affect warranty, preferably with faster throttle closing, and less agressive closed throttle timing. Until then I'll just take it easy, and tread slowly into third/fourth, or let it wind up enough before shifting to prevent it...the sound is still worth the reduced mileage- man its a sweet sounding motor at anything over 2500 rpm... :)
 

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Reason timing is advanced to all hell and back is for fuel economy and emissions. Like what's been said, get a good tuner to tweak it a bit and all is good. Hell, I run 8lbs of boost on this pig and don't ping a bit..
 

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The thing that really concerns me is that on the recommended 87 octane, and I have tried a tank full or two of every brand in my area, my car is pingy on straight line acceleration. The higher the RPM's, the more pinging I hear. But it does not sound pingy all of the time. One run up will sound awesome while the next one sounds pingy all throughout the RPM range. This has been very frustrating for me when it comes time to demonstrate this behavior for the Ford engineer, who actually tells me that spark knock is normal. It's not! It can't be! One sure way to demonstrate this behavior every time without fail is to fill up with the 87 octane fuel of your choice, drive 45 MPH in third gear and lightly punch the gas a few times in quick succession. Doing that confuses the computer so badly that it begins to knock and ping very loudly. When I do this to demonstrate the behavior for the engineer, he acknowledges that he hears the spark knock, but says I should not drive like that. Why should I have to drive my 300 HP Mustang in some special conservative way so it won't spark knock?
 

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Unfortunately, many EFI cars will exhibit that kind of behavior if you drive them like that. I can make almost any car knock and ping if I want it to. I think that under most normal driving circumstances, the engine will perform fine. If it pings a little under light throttle tip in for a few seconds, it's not going to hurt it. I was an ASE master tech for years, and a BMW tech, and master Diesel Tech, and in all my experiences, I have see 2 or three stock cars that had engine damage due to excessive spark knock. Change your grade of fuel, or have the timing reduced just a bit to remove the ping under light tip in. Engine damage will occur with detonation, and WOT, not under light tip in.
 

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Prior to reflashing, I had zero pinging in my 05 manual GT during normal driving or wide open throttle.

Do the 2005/06 mustangs have a knock sensor?
If so, does the computer still try to make timing adjustments to prevent engine damage based on this sensor input?
 

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yep, the 05/06 have some of the most sensitive knock sensors put in to date. The factory tune is designed to run the car on the ragged edge of detonation, just before it, or a little into it. This is for econ/emissions compliance...
 

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zman99 said:
TimeMachine-

Thanks! Your input is most helpful. I would like to ask you a question. Since I intend to keep my car bone stock, use it as my everyday car (16 to 18 thousand miles per year) and would like it to live to see 150+ thousand miles, and would like to have each and every one of the 300 horses I paid for, what is my best option? In southeastern Pa, I have three octane options, 87, 89, or 93. I have a statement in writing from Fords service center that states there is a nationwide problem with 87 octane gasoline, where it is really NOT 87 octane at all, but somewhat lower, so I should use 89 octane. The Ford engineer said he wished They never said that because the engine is not designed for 89 octane. He noted that my engine, which had 7500 miles at the time already had enough carbon buildup that they felt it necessary to shoot some kind of cleaner into it and let it sit overnight. He blamed this carbon buildup on the experimental tank loads of 89 and 93 octane gasoline I used to determine if I could make the knock go away, which the 93 octane did for the most part. If you are like me and read your owners manual cover to cover, you would have noticed the section where they explained the best speeds to upshift your car for fuel economy. If you actually tried this, like I did, you would also notice that to upshift as recommended is smothering to the engine and keeps the RPM's so low that I can't see how carbon buildup would not be a problem no matter what kind of fuel you use. Anyway, given the expectations I have for my car, what is my best option? How can I get Ford to say yes to running premium fuel? Cost is no option. I don't care if it is 30 cents more a gallon. My car simply sounds better on premium (not pingy). Why do you think Ford is being so stubborn on this issue? Why do you think they view carbon buildup as a greater threat than the destruction of engine components.

Hey guys here is another killer article on gasolinereally helps put things into perspective as to why you may be seeing these issues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline

there are other articles just a google away talking about the relaxed standards on gasoline since the hurricannes too.

i still believe the easiest way to keep it from pinging is better gas.. if it stinks like eggs from the exhausts switch back to clean out the cats. or switch to a more effiecent cat/ or off road pipe sans cats. it should just smell rich out the pipes then . carbon. stand on it and blow it out. and if you have a tuner this shouldnt even be an issues as i understand that you can usualy roll back the timing a few degrees regardless of your tune using the handheld.

about the computer learning the gas. yeah that would only seem to make sense, what realy pisses me off about obd2 is that since this is such a closly monitored system it realy should be the most forgiving to changes in the engines abilities to suck in air and expell it. i smell a rat. reflashing is bogus, the computer program should be completely adaptable to all changes that do not affect its metering systems. changing the air intake tube should not f up the computer unless say a change is made to the size of the maf sensor... headers and pipes shouldnt need a tune. you would think the system would see. now that would make a truly great engine managment system.


"you are like me and read your owners manual cover to cover, you would have noticed the section where they explained the best speeds to upshift your car for fuel economy"

ordered and still awaiting delivery of the owners manual and the glove box it arrives in LOL

hope the article helps out

time for a :smoke:

TimeMachine
 

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zman99 said:
The thing that really concerns me is that on the recommended 87 octane, and I have tried a tank full or two of every brand in my area, my car is pingy on straight line acceleration. The higher the RPM's, the more pinging I hear. But it does not sound pingy all of the time. One run up will sound awesome while the next one sounds pingy all throughout the RPM range. This has been very frustrating for me when it comes time to demonstrate this behavior for the Ford engineer, who actually tells me that spark knock is normal. It's not! It can't be! One sure way to demonstrate this behavior every time without fail is to fill up with the 87 octane fuel of your choice, drive 45 MPH in third gear and lightly punch the gas a few times in quick succession. Doing that confuses the computer so badly that it begins to knock and ping very loudly. When I do this to demonstrate the behavior for the engineer, he acknowledges that he hears the spark knock, but says I should not drive like that. Why should I have to drive my 300 HP Mustang in some special conservative way so it won't spark knock?
I am assuming they checked the knock sensor for any malfunction? I got to tell you, the more I read your posts, the more I think there is something terribly wrong. Even before my reflash and mods, I drove my mustang stock for a couple of months and never heard any ping. I have used 91 from day one, however, and I routinely step on it good, which probably explains why I have no carbon buildup. It sounds like the dealer you are taking it to is crap, try taking it to another dealer and see what they say.
 

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Thanks everyone! I think I have a good picture of what is going on now. Here is the way I see it. It is perfectly normal for the 4.6 to spark knock momentarily on the recommended 87 octane until the knock sensors detect the knock and relay that info to the computer which in turn retards the timing until the knock sensor no longer detects the knock. All of this results in a 1/4 to 1/2 second embarrassing loud as H knock each and every time I shift at RPM's above 2500, and almost every time I punch the gas at RPM's above 2500. Don't expect to hear the knock until your engine has achieved normal operating temperature. Do expect it to be much worse on warmer days. 2500 RPM seems to be the breaking point where this knocking really becomes noticeable. Expect 89 octane to mitigate the knocking somewhat, but not eliminate it altogether. If you think the knocking is gone on 89, turn down that radio and listen to what your engine is trying to tell you. 93 octane, thich is the next step up from 89 around here almost completely eliminates the knocking and turns the driving experience into something out of this world. But the engineer tells me I should NEVER EVER use 93 octane. While all of this knocking is apparently normal, it's still not good for the engine, which appears to have been designed with a relatively short life expectancy, which is not a good thing for someone like me who likes em stock and keeps em forever. I have also done some research by test driving Mustang GT's at other dealerships in my area and have not been able to demonsrate the knocking. The cars behave exactly like mine does on 93 octane, which is what the engineer tells me I should NEVER EVER use. Makes me wonder. I have another appointment in early Jan with the engineer, who, as I stated before, is also an expert witness for Ford. If anything good comes out of it, I'll be sure to post it. Oh, TimeMachine, I don't know how long you have been waiting, but I ordered mine on Dec 2 and received it on June 14. The waiting was pure torture. Even with the knocking, it has been worth the wait! Good luck, and thanks again.
 

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Just a quick, stupid question.... What RPM's are you shifting gears at??? Where do you you shift from 1st to 2nd, 3rd etc......
 

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Well, here is my silly but true answer. When an Altima pulls alongside me at a two lane red light 30 seconds after I got there, and then has the gall to think he's going to muscle me out where the lanes merge into one just beyond the light, there is a very good chance that I will shift into second gear at about 6000 RPM. If he still has not given up, there is a good possibility that third will happen at the same. Did I mention that this car shifts like a dream? Now, if I happen to be alongside a more formidable foe when this shift happens, and the engine lets out this absolutely ear splitting spark knock when I am right next to him and I know he heard it, I feel that it makes the Mustang look bad. I really hate that about this car. Under normal driving conditions though, shifts will occur well under that 2500 RPM mark and the engine sounds fine. The point is that it's a Mustang, and it, as stated in the 2006 Mustang brochure, was built to be driven hard and fast, which naturally means shifting all across the RPM spectrum as conditions permit. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
 

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Humor me and next time your out, during normal driving, shift gear around 2800 to 3000 and see what happens. I never shift below 2500 even during normal driving so that could be some of it.
 
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