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Discussion Starter #41
Excuse me, but let's get back to the original question/issue. That is, spark knocking or pinging. My experience seems to be identical with zman99. On hard upshifting or jabbing the throttle in any gear, it rattles like crazy for a split second like marbles in a jar. Yes indeed, the knock sensors seem to be doing their job, since this only happnens for a split second. The original question is, does this harm an engine?

What RPM's one shifts at is not the question. What fuel one uses should not be the question either, since Ford says they should run OK on 87 octane. Considering the opionions expressed here, apparently these motors aren't as happy using 87 octane (with the factory tune) as Ford would like us to believe. The bottom line is, there is a problem.

So, what's the answer? Is Ford correct in stating that these engines are fine on 87 octane, and we're just supposed to ignore this nasty pinging? Are we supposed to not worry that we're slowly destroying our engines? Or, should we protect ourselves and use higher octane fuel and/or use aftermarket tunes?

Unless Ford comes up with an answer, I'm inclined to do the latter; use higher octane fuels as a band-aid, and use aftermarket tunes as the real fix.

I'm not a mechanic, but I can't believe that an engine that pings to any extent will live as long as it would with no detonation. This is not rocket science, merely common sense.
 

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The reason for the test is very simple. Many engines, (especially high performance ones), do not like being loaded hard low in the RPM band. For example shifting from 1st to 2nd at 1800 RPM with 50% throttle. They will ping and rattle some because they are tuned to keep timing very advanced in lower RPM light load for fuel econ. So if you load it heavy too early, it will ping and the knock sensor will cut timing. If, by shifting a little higher fixes the issue, then you at least have a workable solution until you can get retuned.

This is a high performance car, not a toyota, so it will be a bit tempermental, fussy, whatever you want to call it. That's the nature of the beast. Drive a 200K Ferrari for a while and you'll see how tempermental, and maintenance hungry it is. Point is, that it has nothing to do much with how much you've spent on a car, it matters what the car was designed for. It's like the rear end issue that everyone ******* about.. Clunking, groaning, poping at low speeds in parking lots. HELLO???? It's a limited slip rear end with tight clutch packs. That's what they all do!! Doesn't matter if the car is 50K, a limited slip rear end will clunk and make noise at low speed. It's just the way they are designed. I know this and accept the fact that it makes noise sometimes, but I see a lot of people that have bought this car, and it's their first "Sports Car" and they do not understand some of the "tradeoffs" from driveability you give up to get the performance. Not saying that is the case here, I haven't driven your cars, but mine did ping every now and then when mine was stock. Know what I did??? Floored it right through it. If your totally stock, it's under warranty, and if the issue is bad enough, the engine will show a problem before the warranty is up. Trust me.... If you have severe detonation, it will destroy the engine in a matter of seconds..... not miles... or days....
 

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rainman- Thanks for the input. It was most appreciated. chuckles- The higher the RPM I shift at, the more pronounced the spark knock becomes. Lower RPM shifts create a low pitched gravelly spark knock, where higher RPM shifts create a higher pitched, ear splitting spark knock (the one that concerns me). Sometimes the thing will not spark knock at all when I shift and or puch the gas. Ford has acknowledged that my car is doing this, and has invested much time and money into my car so far to try to fix this thing. Why would they do that if it's completely normal? In such a case I would think they would tell me to take a hike. I don't know what to do. It sounds to me like Ford is trying to burn the candle at both ends with this thing. How many high performance cars are actually designed to run on low octane fuel? Is that a normal thing these days? I would sooooo like to just run premium gas without Ford scolding me and telling me I'll degrade my engine if I do.
 

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zman, thanks for trying the higher RPM shift. So if it knocks that hard at higher RPM, that's an issue. Minor knock and ping at low RPM high load is pretty normal for today's tuning. High RPM, HIgh load knock is not good. If Ford can't fix it, find a tuner and quick. And use 93 fuel until you can. Let me tell you this.. Detonation in High RPM, HIgh low will "Degrade" your engine much faster than any 93 octane fuel will.... Yeah, you might get some carbon build up, but you can fix that will a top end clean or driving the hell out her. Detonation will put a hole in your pistons. That, my friend can't be fixed with Top End Clean....
 

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chuckles - Thanks for the input. I'll bring this up when I see the Engineer again in a couple of weeks. I'm also going to try to corner him on whether they saw any damage when they scoped the cylinders. Their report did not mention whether they saw any damage or not, but only that there was excessive carbon buildup. I am also going to try to get some technical data from him (Ford) where they explain exactly why persistent spark knocking is normal. I have not yet found a technical article that suggests persistent spark knock is a good or normal condition. If anyone has, please respond and let me know about it. I use the word persistent because this spark knocking is readily repeatable on demand under any driving conditions with 87 octane fuel. Thanks again chuckles. Your input is appreciated.
 

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zman - Your welcome. Sometimes you need a lot of info to help diagnose over the net.... Did not want you chasing your tail over nothing, or tell you nothing was wrong and then have you toast your engine.... Good example of why I'm not a tech anymore. Worked as BMW Master, and ASE Master for years at dealerships. Was a constant battle between the Dealer, Manufacturer, Tech and Customer.... No one really ever "Won" In your case, Ford says it's okay, you have a tech that says no, you say no, but the dealer won't fix unless ford says they will pay for it. The dealer won't pay the tech for warranty work that Ford does not reimburse them for, so the customer and the tech get stuck with the burden of fixing it themselves... Fun.... I like doing it as a hobby, and a release from my work now, but not proffesionally, at least not for someone else again. Maybe my own shop.....depends on market saturation in my area....
Best of luck to you. IMHO, you should just get a good tuner to redo it, and maybe a good CAI kit. Something like the C&L CAI. Couple of advantages:

1. It will stop your pinging issue
2. Will provide 20 hp more to the rear wheels. (Can't argue with more power!!)
3. Improve your fuel mileage
4. Won't void your warranty
5. Give you some Bragging rights!!
6. Plus you can tune for whatever fuel you want (93, 91, 87, 106, whatever)
7. You can have 2 or 3 different tunes. (Street, Street Race, or KILL MODE) hell, you could have one tune for 106 octane fuel for the track that may give 40 more horses at the rear. Imagine, get 40hp more just by changing fuel and pushing a few buttons!! Gotta love computers!
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Thanks, Chuckles, you've pretty much talked me into it (aftermarket tune). Just for sh*ts and grins, I'm going to drive into another dealer Friday morning, and get someone to take a ride with me. However, I can pretty much figure he's going to say it's normal, and won't cause any damage. And maybe it won't. In my case, it's just a split second of knock, but it doesn't sound nice. I'll bet a paycheck that Ford only has one tune for these cars, so they won't be able to change things like an aftermarket tuner could. If the tech and/or service manager know they can't do anything, they'll be inclined to say it's "normal".

Guess I need to go shopping. There are two SCT dealers near me that have dynos, one of which advertises custom tunes.

Anyone have any experience with Superchips? I only ask because I live in Sanford FL, which is where their home office is, a mere two miles down the street from me.

Thanks all for previous posts.
 

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I use SCT Tuning exclusively for my Saleen SC setup.. Works very well. Talk with Justin at JPC Performance. He's in your neck the woods...
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Are you replying to me, or zman99? I see that you both are in Oklahoma. I searched for SCT dealers on their website, and saw no "JPC Performance" in my area. Several others, but not that one.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Sorry... brain fart going on here. I must have been recalling other threads. I see now that you are in NM, and zman99 is in PA.
 

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Lamotta Performance Available Services: Contact Name: Jake In-House Dyno: Y Dealer Address: 715 North 17/92 Mail-Order: Y Longwood FL 32750 US Custom Tuning: Y Phone: 407-695-4549
Web Site:
www.lamottaperformance.com
E-Mail Address:
[email protected]
 

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Dealer Name: SCT Available Services: Contact Name: SCT In-House Dyno: Y Dealer Address: 134 Baywood Ave Mail-Order: N Longwood FL 32750 US Custom Tuning: N Phone: 407-774-2447
Web Site:
www.sctflash.com
E-Mail Address:
[email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Yes, these are the two I saw closest to me. Does this Justin you speak of work at one of these?
 

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Nope, got my tuners mixed up. He's in MD...
 

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Rainman-

Their official stand is that the detonation we hear is normal and that one should never run higher than 87 octane. My 06 should arrive in a few weeks. I'll let you know if it also knocks. I suspect it will. If it does, I plan to run whatever octane it takes to halt the knocking. I am only speaking for myself when I say that running 87 octane seems like a sure way to shorten the life of this engine. Ford and I now have an understanding that they cannot tell me to run 93 octane in a stock Mustang GT, but if I do, they will have no way of knowing, and if I tell them that I am running 93 octane, I will not in any way void my warranty.
 

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All I can say is I got a 03 gt with a intake, throtle body, 4.10's, Littler flywheel, plenum, Cats back magnas. Im not sure if my car has been tuned all I can say is I was running 87 and now 93 and it has improved alot. Cuz it was knocking hard in fifth and light in third and fourth. But now only a little in fifth and only between like 1500 and 2000 RPM. So if I got something else ill let you know. The ford dealship here told me to run that 93 so I am.
 
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All I can say is I got a 03 gt with a intake, throtle body, 4.10's, Littler flywheel, plenum, Cats back magnas. Im not sure if my car has been tuned all I can say is I was running 87 and now 93 and it has improved alot. Cuz it was knocking hard in fifth and light in third and fourth. But now only a little in fifth and only between like 1500 and 2000 RPM. So if I got something else ill let you know. The ford dealship here told me to run that 93 so I am.

....and we have revived a thread from 2006!
 

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King of Ping, signing off. . .

This will be my last post here as I am letting my B-2 go and moving on to a new stable. As you may or may not know, I have had a 2005 bone stock Mustang GT that spark knocked itself silly on 87 octane. It was so bad, that Ford agreed to replace the whole car. I received a 2006 Mustang GT and it was just as bad on 87. My agreement with Ford was that I'll run 91 octane that the car does not knock on, and Ford will turn a blind eye to the fact that I was doing so. Anyway, the car has 60,000 miles now and I have only replaced the tires and a battery. Other than routine filter changes, I have spent nothing on the car and it has been perfectly reliable and did not accelerate wildly out of control unles I wanted it to. She sure was a good ship. BTW, I never experienced the "carbon buildup" and cold starting problems that Ford promised if I used gasoline rated any higher than 87 octane. The car is still running strong on 91 and will be a good car for whoever is lucky enough to end up with it. This is zman99, the King of Ping, signing off. . .
 

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That ranks up there with the local ford dealer telling me that the spark knock I had going on was because I changed the rear end on my car to a 4.10....

The "lead tech" went on to tell me how the rear end is involved in determining the amount of gas and timing.

I nodded and found a new dealer.
 
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