Forged/Built Shortblock Info Please!

4202 Views 43 Replies 5 Participants Last post by kj_cinci, Nov 9, 2005

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · Nov 1, 2005 (Edited)

So I read the thread about Blown S197's with tuning probs (http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49810), I am not a bit worried about that as I have Ken... :winks

But the busted bottom-end on Barnett got my attention... http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=37938&st=0

I was going to coast around with some 500(?) RWHP and take her to the occational test&tune day... now I'm thinking I might as well get-R-done and put that built shortblock in, crank up the boost and be done with it...

Problem is I have never built, bought or had one built... I realize I need the moving parts, inkluding the forged; steel crank, alu pistons with some good rings, steel rods... plus stronger bearings, bolts etc.

All 4.6 Shortblocks I see out there are steel/cast iron... I want to (if possible) keep mine aluminum to save the weight. My front end is allready too heavy with the road racing suspension and the CF blower...

Anybody out there knowing somebody doing 4.6 alu core swaps? My stock bottom for a built/forged one... I'll have some time to be without the car here in Dec-Jan but still would hate to take it out, have it built, balanced, and then dropped in... even with all the parts readilly available we're looking at two or so weeks without a motor...

Seems Manley, CP and ARP comes up as brand names over and over...

Please keep in mind that I have stock cams in my P&P heads and will keep her as a daily driver, hopefully outa the boost (or very low) at highway speeds but with 6-700 on the rears for the weekend... :happyhapp (after more SC, fuel, and air, mods)

I do realize the drivetrain is next (I have the clutch and flywheel) so please keep it to the shortblock for now, if you can... :winks

Thanks!

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SMP

· #2 · Nov 1, 2005

i am doing the same...sort of.
I am going to build a short block then have her dropped in. So i am going to be watching this thread....
This is what i am looking at:
manley H beam rods
Forged alum. pistons and rings (thinking about cp or if you could suggest diffrent)
ARP Mainstuds
Forged Crank-(cobra?)
There is a thread on another board about a guy building a shortblock because he already blew up his:

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index.php?showtopic=37938&st=0
http://www.vtengines.com/main.htm

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #3 · Nov 1, 2005

CP dished forged alu pistons is what I've been recommended too... with Manley rings...

The link you put in is the same I had above... :winks

So far it looks like a $5K job between the motor in&out plus parts, build and balancing... NOT cool! :sterb:

G

· #4 · Nov 1, 2005

I think the 04 Cobra crank needs the Cobra block to work out. Most articles I have read they are using the '04 Cobra block/ crank and going with Hi-Po rods, bearings, pistons, etc. There is a front cover fitment issue though.

Also the variable cam timing is a limiting factor for tuning big horse numbers so you'll want a custom cam gear to keep the cams constant. I know of a 3 valve setup that has over 600rwhp and they say it could be good for up to 800rwhp but, the gears gotta be swapped.

Lastly, for a real serious mod, swap out the Spanish Oak for a FAST type system as the S.O. is pretty anal on many fronts.

That said, I have only heard of one guy on these forums to ever rebuild his stock internals on his stock block but, he only posted a few times and dissapeared.

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #5 · Nov 1, 2005

R3dF1r3 said:
That said, I have only heard of one guy on these forums to ever rebuild his stock internals on his stock block but, he only posted a few times and dissapeared.

You say; drive like you stole it till you blow it and then rebuild?

I'm worried about debris in my very expencive blower and heads... there is a 'filter' (oil line to the blower) but no guarantees there... and a piston, ring or rod could make life short for the heads, even though my valves and springs are 'bullet proof' we all know there is no such thing...

SMP

· #6 · Nov 1, 2005

R3dF1r3 said:
I think the 04 Cobra crank needs the Cobra block to work out. Most articles I have read they are using the '04 Cobra block/ crank and going with Hi-Po rods, bearings, pistons, etc. There is a front cover fitment issue though.

Also the variable cam timing is a limiting factor for tuning big horse numbers so you'll want a custom cam gear to keep the cams constant. I know of a 3 valve setup that has over 600rwhp and they say it could be good for up to 800rwhp but, the gears gotta be swapped.

Lastly, for a real serious mod, swap out the Spanish Oak for a FAST type system as the S.O. is pretty anal on many fronts.

That said, I have only heard of one guy on these forums to ever rebuild his stock internals on his stock block but, he only posted a few times and dissapeared.

I think this Cobra Crank would work.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=3966

G

· #7 · Nov 1, 2005

Actually, I am an old school believer that if one wants to and knows he will, and has $$ now, do NOT blow up your motor. You never know where unforseen damage could reside. I say do the short block as soon as you can make time for. No need stressing/ scoring your block/ heads for just sake of "gunna replace em anyways".

I think a healthy motor is the best to begin rebuilding early. Go with balance and blueprint and get redline up to 7500 rpm's! A beast...

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #8 · Nov 1, 2005

I'll go with the builder that has the 'same as cash' option! Need about 24 months to pay... :winks

thump_rrr

· #9 · Nov 2, 2005

Hi KJ,

Check out JDM Engineering

I was at the Fun Ford Weekend in Epping N.H. last summer and was speaking with Jim D'amore and his son.

They're well known nationwide and have some amazingly fast fords including a 10.7sec. Lightning and an 11.69sec. 05 GT.

There's a guy in my area who runs an 11sec. lightning who had it done by JDM Engineering and I see it at the track all the time.

What I like about all of their vehicles and I've seen about 20 of them is that the guys aren't spending their time repairing things all the time. They actually get to enjoy their event.

When it's time to get mine done these are the guys I'm going to see.

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kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #10 · Nov 2, 2005

Thanks Thump, I e-mailed them... I'm kinda 'in' with Boss and Fox Lake through MD but we'll see... any good builder will be fine as the parts are the same...

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #11 · Nov 2, 2005 (Edited)

What kinda prices are you guys finding and from where for the following:

Ford Alu Block
ARP Studs
Cobra Crank
Manley H-Beam Rods
CP Dished Alu Pistons
Manley Rings
Oil Pump (Cobra?)
Miscellaneous (seals, etc?)

Labor

I was hoping to get all the parts myself and maybe save some... it could also be used as a 'payment plan' where I get one part a month untill spring and then drop it all off...

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kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #12 · Nov 3, 2005 (Edited)

Nobody huh...??

Okay, this is what I've got together so far...

Take-out 4.6 Cobra Block $450
03-04 Cobra Crank $700 new, $400 take-out
Dished Pistons (CP or Manley) $550
Manley H-Beam Rods w/ARP Bolts $530
ARP Main Studs $260

So just over $2K in parts so far

Bearings ???
Labor inkludin Balancing ???

Cost for motor swap when all is done?

What is my stock heads and block worth?

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kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #13 · Nov 4, 2005

Still nobody...?? Com'N... throw in a word of advice!
Menawhile I have my parts lined up and am working on a deal for assembly/balancing...

Ford Alu 4.6 Block
Cobra Crank
Manley H-beam Rods, with ARP Bolts
Dished Manley Forged Alu Pistons, with Plasma Moly Rings
ARP Main and Head Studs
H-Bearings

Good to 1000 HP, maybe even 1200! Should do it...?!!? LOL!

thump_rrr

· #14 · Nov 4, 2005

kj_cinci said:
Still nobody...?? Com'N... throw in a word of advice!
Menawhile I have my parts lined up and am working on a deal for assembly/balancing...

Ford Alu 4.6 Block
Cobra Crank
Manley H-beam Rods, with ARP Bolts
Dished Manley Forged Alu Pistons, with Plasma Moly Rings
ARP Main and Head Studs
H-Bearings

Good to 1000 HP, maybe even 1200! Should do it...?!!? LOL!

I'm also looking at building up a shortblock for late next year when I'll probably go blown but if I go that route it'll be a Teksid block out of a 96-99 Cobra which is good for 1200HP

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #15 · Nov 4, 2005

thump_rrr said:
I'm also looking at building up a shortblock for late next year when I'll probably go blown but if I go that route it'll be a Teksid block out of a 96-99 Cobra which is good for 1200HP

Wasn't it -98 they ended that? And it is a VERY good block... so good it's almost impossible to find... found one for $1400 bare! (So I guess they're not bullet proof

)

There is also the 'new' 5.4 Alu block (need to make for starter and oil pump assemblies/hook-ups.)

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #16 · Nov 5, 2005

I really like Jim at JDM but have not heard anything good (nor bad) about their builds... guess they are too new...??

Anybody know where I can find a cheap alu block? Anybody know if a 99 Cobra block has the same mount positions we do?

Thanks!

2k5stang

· #17 · Nov 5, 2005

KJ I just wanted to thank you for all the research and info you are putting out!! I will soon be changing over to all forged internals, I might be keeping stock block but changing the insides all out... Anyways just wanted to thank you for the great info you are providing!!!!

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #18 · Nov 5, 2005

2k5stang said:
KJ I just wanted to thank you for all the research and info you are putting out!! I will soon be changing over to all forged internals, I might be keeping stock block but changing the insides all out... Anyways just wanted to thank you for the great info you are providing!!!!

Hey, I'm helping myself the most, the American way I guess... lol

Me too would use the stock block but don't want my car down for that long, 3-4 weeks they say, means 7-8 in shop lingo... :tongue

The stock oil pump is supposedly really good and I'll reuse that...

thump_rrr

· #19 · Nov 5, 2005

kj_cinci said:
I really like Jim at JDM but have not heard anything good (nor bad) about their builds... guess they are too new...??

Anybody know where I can find a cheap alu block? Anybody know if a 99 Cobra block has the same mount positions we do?

Thanks!

Hey KJ,

It's because you're not lookinf in the right places.

Look Here

If I'm not mistaken Jim was working for SVT before he opened his own shop. Please don't quote me on this.

BTW i just ran a [email protected] 1.775 60ft. 8.113 1/8th

kj_cinci

Discussion Starter · #20 · Nov 5, 2005

Hmm... okay... that's like my mom saying that I'm cute... :tongue

It's still not like Boss, MP, Fox Lake, VT, etc... known and renowned builders...

It's an art get an artist not a house painter... or something like that...??

Any place to look for a alu block? Teksid? Are the mounts the same between previous Stang and the S197?

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