Head Upgrade for Rebuild 302

9791 Views 29 Replies 7 Participants Last post by 145566, Aug 19, 2016

chris_oat

Discussion Starter · Aug 16, 2016 (Edited)

Hello AllFordMustangs-Forum!

My name is Chris, im a very happy owner of a 1965 Ford Mustang.
The engine is a 302 (1968) which we rebuild couple of month ago.
- bored .060 over
- new Speed Pro hyper. pistons
- all new rings, bearings, gaskets, lifters
- Edelbrock 2122 cam
- new harmonic balancer
- high Volume (std. pressure) oil pump + ARP oilpump driveshaft + Canton 7qt oil pan
- Weiand Street Warrior Intake + Autolite 4100 (480cfm) + phenolic spacer (with PCV)
- Pertronix 1 Ignition
- Hedman long tube headers (ceramic coated) + Flowmaster exhaust with H-Pipe

All in all im very satisfied with the engine, it runs smooth and strong.
As you can see the stock 302 heads remaind untouched...until now...the next big upgrade I plan are the heads.

Now, the mistake i made was not examine the heads closer while rebuilding the engine but im sure I have the 302 Truck E Heads (with the bump above the 302). Internet says they have either the small 56cc chamber or the large 69cc...

First off, i dont want new aluminum heads for various reasons, so I stick with cast iron.

The plan is this: Upgrade the old iron heads with this:

- Comp Cam Pushrods 7929-16 (5/16 in.)
- AFR Guideplates 6103 (5/16 in.)
- Edelbrock Valve Springs 5822
- Edelbrock Retainers 9724
- ARP Rocker Arm Studs 134-7104 (Base Size 7/16-14in, Rocker Arm nut Size: 3/8-24 in)
- Comp Cams Roller Rockers 1833-16 (1.7 ratio, Stud Size 3/8 in.)
- Fel-Pro Head Gasket (0.039 in. Thickness)
- bring the heads to the machine shop to do the machine-required-work only.

What do you guys think? Will all be playing together nicely?

The current cam lift is Intake: .448 / Exh.: .472.
With the 1.7 RR I can get Intake: .476 / Exh.: 0.501 Lift !

We also have a set of 289 heads laying around. The chamber size of those should be 53-55cc, so I will be using either these or the 302 heads after measureing their chambers.

Im thanksful for any input, but please dont try to convince me to change my mind on aluminum heads.

Thank you for reading my post!

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rex1965

· #2 · Aug 16, 2016

Okay, here's my 2 cts. Other than the screw in studs which is good, the only change in performance you are making is the 1.7 ratio rockers and maybe a compression change up or down,since you don't know exactly what you have. A .024" increase in lift will hardly be noticeable in a street machine, and as long as the pressed in studs are staying in, I would leave it alone, until you are ready to make a head change with bigger valves, you could have installed a cam with a little more duration and lift, than what you have. And the 480 cfm is at the bottom end on performance upgrades. Right now everything you have should work together fine. Good Luck.

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chris_oat

Discussion Starter · #3 · Aug 16, 2016

Thanks for your input rex1965!
Yes that is what im aiming for, perfomance on the bottom end where I need it on the street.
hmmm the other (and last I guess) option would be the World Products Windsor Heads 053030-1. They have small 58cc chambers, larger valves then 289/302 stock.
But unfortunally I read on some other forum that those heads are not compatible with Hedman headers because their sparkplug holes are a little different. Can someone confirm that?

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Gt350HR

· #4 · Aug 16, 2016

IMHO you will spend more reworking stock heads than it would cost for aftermarket heads that flow much better "out of the box".

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145566

· #5 · Aug 16, 2016

Apples:Oranges but my efi 306 with rebuilt e7 heads with comp beehive springs and a .512 lift 281 duration cam made a whopping 205 rwhp. I should've thrown the old heads out and bought a set of trickflow 170's or the likes.

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Gt350HR

· #6 · Aug 16, 2016

Factory iron heads have ALWAYS held back the performance of the small block Ford engine since DAY 1. Back in the '60's all we could do was port the heads as no one made aftermarket heads . This limited the air flow to 200- 240 cfm and kept the engine from making serious power. Now an out of the box aluminum head flows that much or more and the horse power is there. I don't know why the industry took so long to create better heads for these engines, it's obvious they have advantages over bowties.

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chris_oat

Discussion Starter · #7 · Aug 16, 2016

Gt350HR said:
Factory iron heads have ALWAYS held back the performance of the small block Ford engine since DAY 1.

yes gt350hr, I always read that about the stock iron heads and your totally right but what about new iron heads? i can only imagine they flow as good as aftermarket aluminum heads and the only advantages they have nowadays is the weightsaving, am I right?

i may have found a new set of dart iron heads: 58cc chamber, 1.940 / 1.600 valves, hardened exhaust valve, studs and guideplates included. Does sound good, right?
Dart Iron Eagle head 13301181

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rex1965

· #8 · Aug 16, 2016

Here is a website on sbf heads:
Small Block Ford Heads

Keep in mind, everything has to work together, if you do too much missmatch, then you can end up with poor throttle response, etc. So combustion chamber volume is important for your compression ratio, as well as valve and port sizes and volumes and flow. Good Luck.

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145566

· #9 · Aug 17, 2016 (Edited)

chris_oat said:
yes gt350hr, I always read that about the stock iron heads and your totally right but what about new iron heads? i can only imagine they flow as good as aftermarket aluminum heads and the only advantages they have nowadays is the weightsaving, am I right?

No way, the aluminums are going to win every time. Well not every time but as far as dollar per power gained the aluminums will win. They aren't just lighter but they'll flow better and will be cleaner out of the box. The world Windsor, procomp, and the likes are all going to come with casting flash, and the valvetrain will be jinky.
There used to be a guy that was selling ported e7te heads for about $800 a set. $800 isn't too bad I guess for a set of rebuilt heads but they would generally make somewhere around 230-24 rwhp on a car that would previously make around 200.
I think if I didn't have the money for a set of aluminum name brand heads, and if the heads that I have now are in good shape, it'd keep them until they needed to be replaced. A cam upgrade with stock heads isn't really worth the effort either. It'll sound meaner, but drivability will decrease some and the power increase is minimal, say 10-20 hp. That's how it is with the 302 Ho motor anyway.

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67moneypit

· #10 · Aug 17, 2016

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned that you wanted to stick to iron heads for various reasons. I'm wondering what they are? To me, not only are aluminum lighter, which will make your car handle much better, the flow roughly a bazillion times better (quick math in my head- not scientific), run cooler/ overheat less, and most importantly, they have a cool factor of at least 8.

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chris_oat

Discussion Starter · #11 · Aug 17, 2016 (Edited)

Reasons against aluminum heads:
- (possible) warping due to thermal problem: May it either the water pump goes out or just be the belt or other heat problems ... if you dont react fast enought you could damage the aluminum heads more easily then iron heads.
- (i guess) limited choice for my small 302 engine: You see, I looked at ALOT of the alu heads, probably all of them, but I belive 75% of them arent suitable for my small engine. I want power at the bottom end, so heads above 180cfm flow is too much (again, i guess, but you can always teach me for better).
- combustion chamber should be <=58cc, so all heads above that are disqualified, which means all the edelbrock heads (60cc)...
- 80% of the alu heads come with dual springs: I got the Edelbrock 2122 cam, which stats that its not suitable for dual spring. I know, I can easily change to single springs or change the cam, but no.

Cost is not a reason against alu heads, its mostly reason #1: the thermal problem - I want to build a mean little street machine that is also reliable on the long run, and not risk to throw away 2000$ with one overheating issue...

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sp66stang

· #12 · Aug 17, 2016

I got my heads from powerheads in cali. check them out nice people to work with. also afr 165s might work for you, but I like the iron head myself. jmo

rex1965

· #13 · Aug 17, 2016

Don't fret over dual springs, if you are not turning high rpms, then take the inners out, most of the reasons for the duals springs is the bigger valves and higher rpms. And the reason for a head change is not the bottom end rpm range, its for the upper rpm range, where hp is made, it will help make more hp, but most likely above 2500-3000 rpms. My 2 cts. Good Luck.

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67moneypit

· #14 · Aug 17, 2016

chris_oat said:
Reasons against aluminum heads:
- (possible) warping due to thermal problem: May it either the water pump goes out or just be the belt or other heat problems ... if you dont react fast enought you could damage the aluminum heads more easily then iron heads.
- (i guess) limited choice for my small 302 engine: You see, I looked at ALOT of the alu heads, probably all of them, but I belive 75% of them arent suitable for my small engine. I want power at the bottom end, so heads above 180cfm flow is too much (again, i guess, but you can always teach me for better).
- combustion chamber should be <=58cc, so all heads above that are disqualified, which means all the edelbrock heads (60cc)...
- 80% of the alu heads come with dual springs: I got the Edelbrock 2122 cam, which stats that its not suitable for dual spring. I know, I can easily change to single springs or change the cam, but no.

Cost is not a reason against alu heads, its mostly reason #1: the thermal problem - I want to build a mean little street machine that is also reliable on the long run, and not risk to throw away 2000$ with one overheating issue...

Fair enough I suppose. I cant say that I totally agree with them, but that's why there are choices out there!
That being said, if you have your heart set on iron heads, I would ditch the E7 heads, and not waste the time and money to make them satisfactory. You can pick up a set of GT40 or GT40P heads cheaply and would be miles ahead of your E7 heads without even touching them. When I had my '67, I originally ran a set of E7s that I happen to have laying around when I put together a very mild 302. (Stock with a mild cam). I worked those to death trying to get them to breath, until I found a pair of GT40 heads. I did basic gasket matching on my GT40 heads and it acted like a completely different car. More response, faster RPM spin-up, more seat-of-your-pants. The GT40 heads usually have around 63 cc chambers, while the GT40p heads usually have around 58 cc. Only downside to the "p" heads is that the spark plug angle is a bit different and some exhaust manifolds don't play along well. GT40p heads are far and away the more available option, which in turn means a fair amount of aftermarket headers and such. There are at least half a dozen sets sitting in most decent salvage yards.

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Gt350HR

· #15 · Aug 17, 2016

chris_oat said:
yes gt350hr, I always read that about the stock iron heads and your totally right but what about new iron heads? i can only imagine they flow as good as aftermarket aluminum heads and the only advantages they have nowadays is the weightsaving, am I right?

i may have found a new set of dart iron heads: 58cc chamber, 1.940 / 1.600 valves, hardened exhaust valve, studs and guideplates included. Does sound good, right?
Dart Iron Eagle head 13301181

Dart Iron heads are OK but heavier than stock heads but will make more power than any production Ford iron wedge head. Your concern for an aluminum head is unfounded. I use Ford Racing X306 heads often . They are VERY high quality and designed for 100,000 mile durability. Special manufacturing processes were developed to strengthen the decks and other areas. The heads simply do not warp like you are afraid of and the aluminum head is more tolerant to fuel quality issues in European countries. The chance of detonation is greatly reduced.
"I" would not use the iron head on a performance build unless the "rules" made me do it. "Original restorations are different , but you aren't going there.

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145566

· #16 · Aug 17, 2016

Gt350HR said:
Dart Iron heads are OK but heavier than stock heads but will make more power than any production Ford iron wedge head. Your concern for an aluminum head is unfounded. I use Ford Racing X306 heads often . They are VERY high quality and designed for 100,000 mile durability. Special manufacturing processes were developed to strengthen the decks and other areas. The heads simply do not warp like you are afraid of and the aluminum head is more tolerant to fuel quality issues in European countries. The chance of detonation is greatly reduced.

"I" would not use the iron head on a performance build unless the "rules" made me do it. "Original restorations are different , but you aren't going there.

The GT40x /x306 heads are too expensive for what you get. It's $1200 for a set and they don't make near the power out of the box that the TFS 170's will, and the tfs are a little cheaper.

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67moneypit

· #17 · Aug 17, 2016

Gt350HR said:
Your concern for an aluminum head is unfounded. They are VERY high quality and designed for 100,000 mile durability. Special manufacturing processes were developed to strengthen the decks and other areas. The heads simply do not warp like you are afraid of and the aluminum head is more tolerant to fuel quality issues in European countries. The chance of detonation is greatly reduced.
"I" would not use the iron head on a performance build unless the "rules" made me do it. "Original restorations are different , but you aren't going there.

I completely agree with all of this. Most any performance build out there is being fed through aluminum heads. The head warping scenario is fairly unrealistic and not cause enough to warrant fearing them for a longevity build. They are used on everything from a Kia, to the weekend hotrodders muscle car, to nascar; and reliably at that. I cant think of a single person ever tell me that they wished they had iron heads instead of aluminum. On the other side of that coin, many with iron wish they had aluminum.

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chris_oat

Discussion Starter · #18 · Aug 18, 2016

67moneypit said:
...You can pick up a set of GT40 or GT40P heads cheaply ... There are at least half a dozen sets sitting in most decent salvage yards.

well, unfortunally Im from europe, so we dont have those salvage yards and original american V8 part in general are not that easy to get.

67moneypit said:
I completely agree with all of this. Most any performance build out there is being fed through aluminum heads. The head warping scenario is fairly unrealistic and not cause enough to warrant fearing them for a longevity build. They are used on everything from a Kia, to the weekend hotrodders muscle car, to nascar; and reliably at that. I cant think of a single person ever tell me that they wished they had iron heads instead of aluminum. On the other side of that coin, many with iron wish they had aluminum.

hmmm I like what you said about the warping scenatio beeing unrealistic, I really do wanna believe this.

Now we are back to square one - Iron or aluminum heads ?

If I were looking at aluminum heads, what flowrate would be the maximum for a good street performance? Meaning I dont, other any circumstances wanna give up low end performance.
Or other question: Which set of heads would perfectly match for my Edelbrock 2122 cam (idle - 5,500rpm) with a Weiwand Intake (2 Plane, idle - 5,500rpm) ? (Edelbrock Heads not included!!)

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mhuggler

· #19 · Aug 18, 2016

chris_oat said:
Now we are back to square one - Iron or aluminum heads ?

If I were looking at aluminum heads, what flowrate would be the maximum for a good street performance? Meaning I dont, other any circumstances wanna give up low end performance.
Or other question: Which set of heads would perfectly match for my Edelbrock 2122 cam (idle - 5,500rpm) with a Weiwand Intake (2 Plane, idle - 5,500rpm) ? (Edelbrock Heads not included!!)

Go aluminum! I would have done so myself long ago if this government wasn't waging war against the middle class. Go 165cc or 170cc on the intake runners if you want maximum torque(and fun!)

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chris_oat

Discussion Starter · #20 · Aug 18, 2016 (Edited)

mhuggler said:
Go aluminum! ... Go 165cc or 170cc on the intake runners if you want maximum torque(and fun!)

Alright, the perfect match would be the Trick Flow TFS-51410002-M58: 58cc chamber, 170cc Intake, 66cc Exhaust, single springs BUT the only downside is this - "Note: Trick Flow twisted wedge pistons are required for use with these heads to allow for piston to valve clearance. "
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tfs-51410002-m58/overview/make/ford

What you think guys, is that really an issue with a mild cam and speed pro pistons that have 4 valve reliefes already? I know the best answer I will probably get from Trick Flow themself

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