[Troon2004]

Yea, yea, I know...

Seriously though, anybody upgrade the stock heads on their vehicle while/after supercharging ? I ask because I've been told the valves begin to "float" after about 500 HP and I'm planning on going to beyond that level at some point (I have F1-A envy: it's true). Would you simply upgrade the springs and otherwise keep the stock heads or replace them entirely with, e.g., TrickFlows ?

 

[travelers]

If your planning on going that much HP then just get some ported heads with larger valves and upgraded springs. You'll need them to keep control of the valves anyhow. Trickflow had heads for the 3V? Livernois has some good heads.
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[Troon2004]

I was told Trickflow did but I haven't talked to them myself. As for Livernois, I checked them out first, along with Patriot Performance: both look like quality stuff, espec. Livernois. I'm told Foxlake doe a good job of porting.

I thought porting the heads and upgrading the valves and springs might be enough too. Would you change the cam shaft while you were at it ?

 

[travelers]

I was old Trickflow did but I haven't talked to them myself. As for Livernois, I checked them out first, along with Patriot Performance: both look like quality stuff, espec. Livernois. I'm told Foxlake doe a good job of porting.

I thought porting the heads and upgrading the valves and springs might be enough too. Would you change the cam shaft while you were at it ?

you need too decide on the HP you and then decide on what parts are going to get you there. I would talk to a few builders for there experence in how to they think the best way to get to your goals. Larry H, Livernois, Foxlake, just to name a few.

As for Patriot stuff I have heard from a good sorse that its form China and not good quality.

 

[Troon2004]

Thanks for the heads up on all that.

I just got off the phone with Trick Flow and they told me they don't have heads for or really handle work on the 4.6L; however, they referred me to Mike at Competition Cams (330-634-2155, located in TN) since they do a lot of work on 4.6s.

I explained to Mike what I was doing, i.e., adding the P1-SC-1 and probabbly upgrading to a D1 or even F1 at some point. Mike said that porting made sense for the n/a guys (you can pick up maybe 30-50 HP and they do do porting for the 4.6L) but that porting probably doesn't make as much sense for a supercharged engine given (1) you're "only" getting about 60 or so additional HP and (2) the expense is roughly $1K by the time it's all said and done, hardly worth the $ as opposed to adding a smaller pulley or upgrading the supercharger itself.

What he recommended was just going to upgraded springs and retainers (I decided on the Crowers, pn.# 2613-24 @ $92.00 & 700-24 @ $299.00, respectively) and leaving the OEM cams alone.

 

[travelers]

Thanks for the heads up on all that.

I just got off the phone with Trick Flow and they told me they don't have heads for or really handle work on the 4.6L; however, they referred me to Mike at Competition Cams (330-634-2155, located in TN) since they do a lot of work on 4.6s.

I explained to Mike what I was doing, i.e., adding the P1-SC-1 and probabbly upgrading to a D1 or even F1 at some point. Mike said that porting made sense for the n/a guys (you can pick up maybe 30-50 HP and they do do porting for the 4.6L) but that porting probably doesn't make as much sense for a supercharged engine given (1) you're "only" getting about 60 or so additional HP and (2) the expense is roughly $1K by the time it's all said and done, hardly worth the $ as opposed to adding a smaller pulley or upgrading the supercharger itself.

What he recommended was just going to upgraded springs and retainers (I decided on the Crowers, pn.# 2613-24 @ $92.00 & 700-24 @ $299.00, respectively) and leaving the OEM cams alone.

Sounds goods. Good luck on your plans. let us know how it works out

 

[twobitcoder]

Look at the difference between Livernois and FRPP! You get both heads from Livernois that flow 270/180 (at 0.5") for $1800

compared to FRPP heads that flow about the same for $2800.

The really interesting part is that Livernois includes new retainers and springs. So if someone were planning a cam swap, that would save about $400 by doing the ported heads and cam at the same time. Unless I've missed something?

 

[Troon2004]

I read it that way too (unless I've also missed something). The thing is, when I talked to Mike @ Competiton Cams his point was that unless you're talking REALLY large HP numbers (i.e., in excess of 800+) that the OEM heads flow well enough so that different springs and retainers (and probably headers to assist too) will allow you reach/get close enough to those numbers without necessarily having to do a complete head replacement.

Anybody else have a view on this ?

 

[stlwagon]

Look at the difference between Livernois and FRPP! You get both heads from Livernois that flow 270/180 (at 0.5") for $1800

compared to FRPP heads that flow about the same for $2800.

The really interesting part is that Livernois includes new retainers and springs. So if someone were planning a cam swap, that would save about $400 by doing the ported heads and cam at the same time. Unless I've missed something?

You're not factoring in the core charge for the Livernois heads.

 

[Ricesmoker]

Your valves wont float at 500 HP level magically. Valve float will occur at high RPM - over 6500 more likely.

 

[stlwagon]

Your valves wont float at 500 HP level magically. Valve float will occur at high RPM - over 6500 more likely.

Agree... There is no correlation between valve float and HP. 6500 seems to be the max on the stock & heads.

 

[jgard07]

With the FRPP heads you are getting new castings, without having to pay a core charge.

 

[Troon2004]

Sustained ultra-high RPMs won't be an issue for me so it sounds like changing springs and retainers will be adequate.

I'm also intending to put in delete plates when I have a new rotating assembly and coated BBKs installed. Any views about that or other engine-related modifications that should be considered up to about 600-700 HP (aside from one or more BAPs, larger fuel rails and injectors, which I'll be getting too) ? I ask because I would like to do the necessary modifications at one-fell swoop rather than having to re-pull the engine several times.

 

[twobitcoder]

I read it that way too (unless I've also missed something). The thing is, when I talked to Mike @ Competiton Cams his point was that unless you're talking REALLY large HP numbers (i.e., in excess of 800+) that the OEM heads flow well enough so that different springs and retainers (and probably headers to assist too) will allow you reach/get close enough to those numbers without necessarily having to do a complete head replacement.

Anybody else have a view on this ?

The flow #'s on a CNC ported head are a 20% increase for the stage1 ($1800).

Stock @ 0.5: 227/153

Livernois @ 0.5: 274/182

This is the only affordable option for me. Stage2 has same flow #s but adds bronze guides. Stage3 flows 291/205 for $2800, out of my ballpark.

You are going to see huge power from those flow #'s. I'm seriously considering just waiting until I can afford the heads and cams at the same time. Hope my wife doesn't mind if I drive her car for a couple weeks of downtime. ;-() Man... thinking about it is giving me chills... we're talking 400 n/a horsepower for about...$3500 p&l?

 

[Ricesmoker]

we're talking 400 n/a horsepower for about...$3500 p&l?

Not many have seen that HP number N/A ....

 

[stlwagon]

Not many have seen that HP number N/A ....

It's tough on a modular motor. At 408 I think I've about tapped the potential of this motor without some form of power adder.

 

[Troon2004]

So am I solid up to 6-700 with just the spring/retainer/rotating assembly/fuel system upgrades (along with the BBKs & delete plates) or is there something critical that I've missed ? I realize I could/perhaps should p&p/consider different cams but are any of those changes really necessary at the power level we're talking about possibly making and the RPMs I'll ordinarily be running at ?

 

[stlwagon]

So am I solid up to 6-700 with just the spring/retainer/rotating assembly/fuel system upgrades (along with the BBKs & delete plates) or is there something critical that I've missed ? I realize I could/perhaps should p&p/consider different cams but are any of those changes really necessary at the power level we're talking about possibly making and the RPMs I'll ordinarily be running at ?

6700 on stock internals is pushing the outer fringes of safety.

 

[Troon2004]

I'll be changing out the rotating assembly Mark, along with the springs and retainers...are you saying that those changes along with the others I mentioned (and ones I've already made to the vehicle) are not sufficient to support that kind of HP ?If not, what are you suggesting I consider ?

 

[twobitcoder]

It's tough on a modular motor. At 408 I think I've about tapped the potential of this motor without some form of power adder.

But....stlwagon....that's not the motor you car came with. ;-) I'm talking about getting it up to 350 rwhp without removing the engine. ;-) Still, your list of mods is amazing. I'll never go that far; this is my daily driver.