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I just got my hot rod cams installed and they sound amazing, but definatly not producing the power i thought they would. They never did a before run but with a CAI, Hot rod cams, axle backs, and 4.10 gears i got 290 horse to the wheel and 307 ft/lbs torque. I was figuring it would be around 315 to the wheel. They told me that if i got headers and high flow cats that my engine would breathe better and i should get around the 315 mark. Any opinions/comments?
 

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...those numbers are not bad. In fact...I think they are pretty good base on your mods. Was this on a dyno jet?
 

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That's the lowest number I've seen yet...basically no gain from the cams at all. I'd get another tuner. You should be at least 305 with your mods.
 

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That's the lowest number I've seen yet...basically no gain from the cams at all. I'd get another tuner. You should be at least 305 with your mods.
If he doesn't have a baseline run then how can you say he didn't get a gain?
 

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Not an expert on the subject, but arn't the hot rod cams made for more of the sound aspect than the performance aspect, whereas COMP cams are more performance geared.
 

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If he doesn't have a baseline run then how can you say he didn't get a gain?
Just going off what most people get with a CAI and dyno tune. True if his numbers were severely low to begin with then that might be about right.

Not an expert on the subject, but arn't the hot rod cams made for more of the sound aspect than the performance aspect, whereas COMP cams are more performance geared.
No
 

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he should definatly be higher I do agree that their should have bee a base run to adjust anything that may have been of and that good long tube will help but I was hittin 307 RWHP with a bbk intake and long tubes.

JLT flows better than BBK and I picked up 5RWHP from the switch. so think about it 290 is off.

GT Baseline is average of 273 less if you got a dud of a stang. If hea had them long tubes and cat back about 20RWHP. intake anywhere from 12-22 depending on intake. He should be higher.

Iam getting similar cams and am expecting at least 330RWHP off the bottle.

In the end yes you should have at least 300RWHP and thats sucking.
 

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FWIW, with just a CAI, UDP, catback exhaust, and dyno tune I got 301 rwhp and 321 rwtq on a dyno jet. I'd expect your numbers to be higher.
 

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Becca, check your sheets... that sounds like uncorrected or standard corrected numbers to me and not SAE. The highest CAI/stock manifolds/bolt on car I've seen was like 294 or so with a C&L racer. Not saying it's not possible, just making sure everyone compares apples to apples.

I didn't tune this guys car, nor do I know who did... but regardless... let's compare Dynojet SAE corrected numbers only so we don't have to play the "guess if he's close" game.

Regardless of the situation, I'm assuming from those numbers this was done in fact on a Dynojet, and SAE corrected. 4.10:1 gears will reduce your horsepower numbers proportionally, and I've seen a 10RWHP loss back to back from 3.55 to 4.10's. Second... Hot Rod cams make damn near no power whatsoever. So to be honest, those numbers are right around what I'd expect. You may have seen 300RWHP if you had 3.55 gears, and to be honest if you have the right throttle response calibration, there is absolutely NO NEED for 4.10 gears in a S197 Mustang GT.

If you put on long tubes, you'll probably see 305-310RWHP with your 4.10's still in... if you swap that hot rod cam out with a comp cam, you may see as much as 325-330RWHP with your 4.10's in. That's nearly 340+ with a set of 3.73 or 3.55's (which I would reccomend).

Drive a car that has our throttle calibration and 3.73's, and a car that has a competing throttle calibration with 4.10's and our 60 foot will win every time.

That's my honest reccomendation. Your numbers aren't far off at all. That's about as good as your tuner is going to get without a different cam grind, 95mm racer intake, and some Kooks headers to let it all breathe.

Chris
 

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Just remember that Elevation, humidity, Ambient air temp, and the calibration of the dyno you are testing on can all affect your numbers. The numbers don't mean anything.. If you are going to dyno your car to see the results of a mod, you should do a before and after. Who cares about dynos corrected for everything too.. What counts is what you are putting to the ground where you live, not what you would put to the ground in 20% humidity, at sea level, and at 60 degrees farenheit, or some other fake situation you will never find yourself in. It is irrelevant.

Too many people get thier car dyno'd and expect to see some specific number. If you are dead set on seeing some number before you are happy, then you better start doing your dyno tests on cool dry days and never on a day that you would actually be driving in..
 

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Another fine example of $1500 wasted on cams. It won't be the last.:headscratch:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Just some info, it was tested on a dynojet. I live near toronto canada so i do not think elevation would be an issue. I figured he would have done a baseline dyno and maybe he did, i am going to call him to see if they did do one. The shop i got them done at is a very respected mustang shop in my area so i doubt that its in the tune. Wither my expectations were to high or i did have a dud to begin with. Im not a mechanic but getting headers and high flow cats does make sense to me to let the engine breathe, especially with the new cam staying open longer. Im also sure he just wants to make some money selling me headers and cat backs. I guess i have some thinking to do. The cam does sound AMAZING though.
 

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I figured he would have done a baseline dyno and maybe he did, i am going to call him to see if they did do one.
He better have. There is no excuse for not doing it.

The shop i got them done at is a very respected mustang shop in my area so i doubt that its in the tune.
I know of a ton of respected car and motorcycle shops that are highly respected that do crap work. Word of mouth can be a bad thing too. No one complains about the $3000 in mods they just got "Buyers Justification" is what I like to call it. A lot of shops get good press because of it.

Wither my expectations were to high
They seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

Im not a mechanic but getting headers and high flow cats does make sense to me to let the engine breathe, especially with the new cam staying open longer.
Correct conclusion, wrong reasoning. Not bad for someone who isn't a machanic though:bigthumbsup

Im also sure he just wants to make some money selling me headers and cat backs.
If he is going to stay in biz he had better suggest you need stuff:D In this case he is right though too.

The cam does sound AMAZING though.
That's a bit of a stange situation from where I stand. Making cams just to sound good, which a few places do just seems like a big waste of money too me. You can get some that work and make power, why not offer those only? Strange:headscratch:

I was lucky enough to be able to spend about a half hour while the track was shut down with Jim (I think that is his name) from JDM yesterday talking about cams. They do a lot of R&D for Comp. Cams. He had a ton of interesting stuff too say and was by no means keeping any secrets. I like the way comp is attacking the cam market. They have some very, very nice stuff. His 4.6 Seleen with a Seleen blower is a perfect example. I was standing right next to it while it was running and it had a good decent, but not over the top rump to it. The cams were prototypes but mostly boiled down to pretty big lift, log duration but minimal overlap and a LSA of 14.5. It sounded “just right” and obviously worked. With a forged 5.0L bottom end, ported heads, those cams at 14.5psi was ruing 10 flats and looked, drove, everything like a DD. If I were not able to get 650rwhp out of my 5.4L 4v so easy I would have probably made arrangements to get a set of cams for it right then. It was nice to talk to someone who obviously knew their stuff and was even so honest as to tell me which cams were too over the top for what I wanted out of my car. The guy I was with just melted his GT500 down and already has an aluminum lower end all done and has a set of “GT” heads all ported and ready to go. They were talking BIG cam numbers. With he 3.4L Whipple he has his target is 900rwhp and still reasonably street driven! Woooooooo! That’s more than a Bugatti Vyron makes by about 100hp!
 

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I had a FRPP CAI,Dyno tune,UDP,BBK shorties,FRPP 410's,Dyno Tech drive shaft. and made 305 on a Dyno Jet and then installed the Hot Rod cams and got like 5 more hp. I called Ford Racing because I thought I should have gotten more hp. They said to check the timing. I think they suggested retarding the timing and I might be off on the rpm range so call them and double check but its like 7 deg to like 1500 rpm,them 12deg to 3000 rpm,then 15 deg to 4500 rpm the 20 deg to red line. It then made 335 to the wheels.My tuner retarded to 15 deg prior to all this and thats why I didn't make the power. But after all this was completed its awesome. So just call Ford Racing and they will give you the exact numbers to set the timing at and I bet you thats your problem. Its in the tune. You differentially need a 373 or 410 gear with cams. I did not lose any low end torque or felt any but I did have to feather the clutch when I had 355's. And to all those who say you don't get any power gains from the Hot Rod cams your wrong.I even put shorties on and I got like 5 hp but the low end torque improved a lot. I also have two friends who have the exact same bolt ons as me but they have long tubes and yes they got @5 to 8 more hp I got them on torque,so just keep that in mind. Good luck and I hope this helps you out.
 

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Don't forget that the stock rwhp on these cars can vary from the mid 230s to the high 270s. You may just have got one a little on the low side.
 

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I had a FRPP CAI,Dyno tune,UDP,BBK shorties,FRPP 410's,Dyno Tech drive shaft. and made 305 on a Dyno Jet and then installed the Hot Rod cams and got like 5 more hp. I called Ford Racing because I thought I should have gotten more hp. They said to check the timing. I think they suggested retarding the timing and I might be off on the rpm range so call them and double check but its like 7 deg to like 1500 rpm,them 12deg to 3000 rpm,then 15 deg to 4500 rpm the 20 deg to red line. It then made 335 to the wheels.My tuner retarded to 15 deg prior to all this and thats why I didn't make the power. But after all this was completed its awesome. So just call Ford Racing and they will give you the exact numbers to set the timing at and I bet you thats your problem. Its in the tune. You differentially need a 373 or 410 gear with cams. I did not lose any low end torque or felt any but I did have to feather the clutch when I had 355's. And to all those who say you don't get any power gains from the Hot Rod cams your wrong.I even put shorties on and I got like 5 hp but the low end torque improved a lot. I also have two friends who have the exact same bolt ons as me but they have long tubes and yes they got @5 to 8 more hp I got them on torque,so just keep that in mind. Good luck and I hope this helps you out.

+1000 As I've said before...Some tuners just don't know how to tune for them. Take it somewhere else with a tuner that knows what they are doing. Just because Tillman or some other tuner comes on here and tells you they don't make power, don't take it for gold. I've had their tune and was not impressed which is why I got it dyno tuned with much better results.
 

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+1000 As I've said before...Some tuners just don't know how to tune for them. Take it somewhere else with a tuner that knows what they are doing. Just because Tillman or some other tuner comes on here and tells you they don't make power, don't take it for gold. I've had their tune and was not impressed which is why I got it dyno tuned with much better results.
I also question some of the shops installing the cams. Just stabbing them in there without taking the time to degree them correctly can leave you with one seriously screwed up motor. Back in the day when you had one cam you could fire it in and not have to degree it. You may be +/- a couple degrees but that will just effect where the torque curve is and how it makes power, not how much. When you have two cams (or four) and they are not set up exactly the same you end up with one bank of cylinders running different than the others which is obviously not ideal. And it only takes 1-2 deg out of balance to create problems. Some shops probably degree them, some shops probably just stab them in. The ones that just stab them in can get lucky and have the cam timing real close and will see good gains. But if they stab them in there and they are off from each other they could net a zero gain or even loose power. Degreeing cams is a big deal. When I build Ducati 4v motors (4 cams) I always degree the cams. It’s a must. I have taken 999R’s out of the crate, installed exhaust, set up the fueling ad the take them to the track to break them in. Once its broken in and if the customer wants to pay I will degree the cams. I usually get between 6 and 8hp all the way through the rev range and that is on a 145rwhp motor. That’s an awful big gain for just timing the cams correctly.

If I were doing cams in my car I wouldn’t even consider not degreeing them.
 

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Two cams and 4 make it a litte more challenging but even more necessary if you want it to run right.
 

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I also question some of the shops installing the cams. Just stabbing them in there without taking the time to degree them correctly can leave you with one seriously screwed up motor. Back in the day when you had one cam you could fire it in and not have to degree it. You may be +/- a couple degrees but that will just effect where the torque curve is and how it makes power, not how much. When you have two cams (or four) and they are not set up exactly the same you end up with one bank of cylinders running different than the others which is obviously not ideal. And it only takes 1-2 deg out of balance to create problems. Some shops probably degree them, some shops probably just stab them in. The ones that just stab them in can get lucky and have the cam timing real close and will see good gains. But if they stab them in there and they are off from each other they could net a zero gain or even loose power. Degreeing cams is a big deal. When I build Ducati 4v motors (4 cams) I always degree the cams. It’s a must. I have taken 999R’s out of the crate, installed exhaust, set up the fueling ad the take them to the track to break them in. Once its broken in and if the customer wants to pay I will degree the cams. I usually get between 6 and 8hp all the way through the rev range and that is on a 145rwhp motor. That’s an awful big gain for just timing the cams correctly.

If I were doing cams in my car I wouldn’t even consider not degreeing them.

Do the Ducati motors have VCT?
 
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