I need help understanding Turbo/Superchargers.

1755 Views 20 Replies 9 Participants Last post by mattsadagursky, Mar 18, 2013

Draghon

Discussion Starter · Oct 8, 2012

I am wondering how to determine the best S/Tcharger for a car (in general) can I use a power graph to determine the best turbo? how would I read one, could someone teach me please?

I know the bigger is not always better but what does a v6 mustang usually take?

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

metalman302

· #2 · Oct 9, 2012

They make compressor maps for SCs too....they're just not as critical for SC's since SC's don't need to spool up. If you look up the specs on say a a-trim, s-trim, Novi 1000 etc, they will tell you the max hp that the blower can support. You want to keep it as small as possible but still have a little room to spare. If the blower is too big it will take longer to get into the boost curve, you won't get to use the most efficient range of the blower, and it will take more hp to drive the larger blower.

If you can find brackets cheap, you can probably find and A-trim head unit cheap. I know a local guy making 435 rwhp with and A-trim on his fox and he has room to spare.

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Draghon

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 9, 2012

umm, that's not anything to do with what answer I was looking for, thanks though, I knew that info...

What I'm asking is if I dynoed my car, can I use the HP and TQ to find the best turbo for my car? Like if I'm getting beat on the top end by other cars but I have them on the low and mid end of the RPM I'd want a turbo for the higher RPM or if the opposite happens I'd want a smaller, faster spooling turbo or something...

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ESG-642T

· #4 · Oct 9, 2012

Draghon said:
umm, that's not anything to do with what answer I was looking for, thanks though, I knew that info...

What I'm asking is if I dynoed my car, can I use the HP and TQ to find the best turbo for my car? Like if I'm getting beat on the top end by other cars but I have them on the low and mid end of the RPM I'd want a turbo for the higher RPM or if the opposite happens I'd want a smaller, faster spooling turbo or something...

This is a turbo or supercharger not a torque converter.

You can get a 'top end turbo' and end up being slower in the 'low end' than you were n/a

superchargers don't matter as much they are belt driven.

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Draghon

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 9, 2012

yeah but superchargers are still limited in what they can do.

what I'd like to know is if I went and dynoed my car is there a way to see where the power is lacking and add the appropriate item to boost that particular part of the curve.

I mean any idiot can go out buy a turbo and throw it on a car then go, but a true gear head will know what turbo will benefit the car best or if a supercharger is better...

so like on a short course a Supercharger might be best for the slow turns but on a high speed course the same charger is useless, but then again, on a drag strip, what do u prefer, to be out ahead 1st then lose on the top end, or do you wanna be the one that makes a comeback? see a person that can read the stats can make the car an almighty car that is good in all the ranges...

Where's Redlyr when you need him, he seems to know everything about everything lol

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ESG-642T

· #6 · Oct 10, 2012

Draghon said:
yeah but superchargers are still limited in what they can do.

what I'd like to know is if I went and dynoed my car is there a way to see where the power is lacking and add the appropriate item to boost that particular part of the curve.

I mean any idiot can go out buy a turbo and throw it on a car then go, but a true gear head will know what turbo will benefit the car best or if a supercharger is better...

so like on a short course a Supercharger might be best for the slow turns but on a high speed course the same charger is useless, but then again, on a drag strip, what do u prefer, to be out ahead 1st then lose on the top end, or do you wanna be the one that makes a comeback? see a person that can read the stats can make the car an almighty car that is good in all the ranges...

Where's Redlyr when you need him, he seems to know everything about everything lol

I can almost guarantee you nobody on this forum knows more about 94-04 v6 mustangs than me. Would be willing to bet on it.

With that said:
Its almost impossible to say "oh this turbo will put me ahead, and i will lose on the top end OR oh this turbo will have me behind in the 8th but i'll come around him at the 1,000ft mark" unless you have exactly what kind of car you want to beat and know exactly the horsepower and torque that car makes.

Pretty basic concept

Positive displacement superchargers[m90/m112]
fun from stop lights, and from digs if you have traction

centrifugal superchargers:
most people end up with an S trim vortech kit, more mid range - top end

Turbos:
you can do whatever you want with turbos
low end - small turbo
mid range - medium turbo (which will cover top en dalso)
top end - (like huge top end? you can go with 76-80mm turbos)

Also when racing you have other ways of doing thigs 2step to build boost off the line, vs being at a stop light where your not going to do that. So from a stop light an m90/m112 car might make you look bad from a dead stop to the next light, and on the track where you can 2step / get on a converter / etc you might make him look horrible, and once the turbo hits full boost keep pulling lengths on him.

Just a bunch of crap you have to know which is why most people call the company and buy what they are told to buy

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metalman302

· #7 · Oct 10, 2012

You are confused.

What you think you are thinking of, is determining if H/C/I are not matched to each other. Those dictate the powerband of a motor. If you do mods to gain power on the top end, 9 times out of 10 you loose some on the bottom end. That's the purpose of VCT, so you can have the best of both. The boost adds on to the NA powerband.

Don't forget that even though a centri makes peak boost at peak rpm, you will still be making a few lbs in the lower rpm's so you will be gaining power everywhere.

All this talk of powerbands, that's what rear gears and shift points are for...... weather you are stick or auto.

There is no "best" choice between turbo, centrifugal SC, or positive displacement SC. They all have their pros and cons. It come down to how you want to use the car, and your personal preference. But if you REALLY TRULY want to know which one is best.... Search the V8 forums :deadhorse:

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metalman302

· #8 · Oct 10, 2012

Are there even any turbo systems that are CA legal???? Gues that makes your decision easy...... Procharger lol

Draghon

Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 10, 2012

I believe STS is CA legal, but not 100% on that...
I guess that better solves my question... I was merely trying to find out on a dyno chart, what system would give me a finer, even line instead of a squiggly one and such stuff... I was actually thinking of getting an STS but no money right now so I was thinking more in terms of maximizing my Gran Turismo 5 cars... :kooky:

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Draghon

Discussion Starter · #10 · Oct 10, 2012

so in the case of my V6 mustang, what system would be best for the car? I'm the type that likes being out front at the start but I also like to be the one that makes the pass at the last leg so basically mid range is not really needed but if I did that would my dyno chart show an M pattern? that's what I was talking about matching the system to the chart...

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Markstang

· #11 · Oct 10, 2012

ESG-642T said:
I can almost guarantee you nobody on this forum knows more about 94-04 v6 mustangs than me. Would be willing to bet on it.

With that said:
Its almost impossible to say "oh this turbo will put me ahead, and i will lose on the top end OR oh this turbo will have me behind in the 8th but i'll come around him at the 1,000ft mark" unless you have exactly what kind of car you want to beat and know exactly the horsepower and torque that car makes.

Pretty basic concept

Positive displacement superchargers[m90/m112]
fun from stop lights, and from digs if you have traction

centrifugal superchargers:
most people end up with an S trim vortech kit, more mid range - top end

Turbos:
you can do whatever you want with turbos
low end - small turbo
mid range - medium turbo (which will cover top en dalso)
top end - (like huge top end? you can go with 76-80mm turbos)

Also when racing you have other ways of doing thigs 2step to build boost off the line, vs being at a stop light where your not going to do that. So from a stop light an m90/m112 car might make you look bad from a dead stop to the next light, and on the track where you can 2step / get on a converter / etc you might make him look horrible, and once the turbo hits full boost keep pulling lengths on him.

Just a bunch of crap you have to know which is why most people call the company and buy what they are told to buy

metalman302 said:
You are confused.

What you think you are thinking of, is determining if H/C/I are not matched to each other. Those dictate the powerband of a motor. If you do mods to gain power on the top end, 9 times out of 10 you loose some on the bottom end. That's the purpose of VCT, so you can have the best of both. The boost adds on to the NA powerband.

Don't forget that even though a centri makes peak boost at peak rpm, you will still be making a few lbs in the lower rpm's so you will be gaining power everywhere.

All this talk of powerbands, that's what rear gears and shift points are for...... weather you are stick or auto.

There is no "best" choice between turbo, centrifugal SC, or positive displacement SC. They all have their pros and cons. It come down to how you want to use the car, and your personal preference. But if you REALLY TRULY want to know which one is best.... Search the V8 forums :deadhorse:

i think you both wasted your time giving your insight.

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ESG-642T

· #12 · Oct 10, 2012

Draghon said:
so in the case of my V6 mustang, what system would be best for the car? I'm the type that likes being out front at the start but I also like to be the one that makes the pass at the last leg so basically mid range is not really needed but if I did that would my dyno chart show an M pattern? that's what I was talking about matching the system to the chart...

Your an idiot

Ok now that I've gotten that out of the way. You don't make low end power and NOT make mid range power. Most cases you will either have low/mid and get pulled up to
or have mid/top and get pulled down low
or have a decent powerband all around and stick with the car until you dominate the guy or the guy just has more power than you and your screwed.

Markstang690 said:
i think you both wasted your time giving your insight.

I think your right, but then again isn't that most of the v6 section?

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metalman302

· #13 · Oct 10, 2012

Draghon said:
I believe STS is CA legal, but not 100% on that...
I guess that better solves my question... I was merely trying to find out on a dyno chart, what system would give me a finer, even line instead of a squiggly one and such stuff... I was actually thinking of getting an STS but no money right now so I was thinking more in terms of maximizing my Gran Turismo 5 cars... :kooky:

What will give you a "non squiggly" line is the smoothing setting on the dyno display lol

Now if you really meant to say a broad power curve, then you want full boost right away which would be a pd blower, or the smallest turbo without being undersized to get the fastest spool.

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MasterX

· #14 · Oct 11, 2012

just get one of these, and go to the track, i guarantee after trying it, you will never question us again, unless you survive.

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1995-04.html

rex_harrison

· #15 · Oct 11, 2012

He basically wants a Gran Turismo style chart to show exactly how much HP and torque each mod would add before actually putting it on. Also, he has no money.

No offense kid, but by the time you save up enough money for a turbo or supercharger ( $4-6k ) either your priorities will have changed, your car will have broken down, or you'll have changed your mind and put that 5k towards a better car.

But I guess there's no law against day dreaming out loud.

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metalman302

· #16 · Oct 11, 2012

rex_harrison said:
No offense kid, but WHEN OR IF you save up enough money for a turbo or supercharger ( $4-6k ) either your priorities will have changed, your car will have broken down, or you'll have changed your mind and put that 5k towards a better car.

But I guess there's no law against day dreaming out loud.

I know, he acts as if he already has HCI. He can Google plenty of dyno sheets of turbo'd or SC'd stock HCI 3.8

Fixed, BTW this sums up 50% of the threads in the V6 section

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Draghon

Discussion Starter · #17 · Oct 11, 2012

MasterX said:
just get one of these, and go to the track, i guarantee after trying it, you will never question us again, unless you survive.

1995 Darwin Award: JATO Rocket Car

Mythbusters as it says in the article proved it can be done and safely (well as much safe as strapping a rocket to your ass) and not be killed because of it. that was one of the 1st season episodes, if not THE 1st episode.

OK OK OK I get the idea guys thanks a lot and nothing at the same time...

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JohnG3.8

· #18 · Oct 12, 2012

rex_harrison said:
He basically wants a Gran Turismo style chart to show exactly how much HP and torque each mod would add before actually putting it on. Also, he has no money.

No offense kid, but by the time you save up enough money for a turbo or supercharger ( $4-6k ) either your priorities will have changed, your car will have broken down, or you'll have changed your mind and put that 5k towards a better car.

But I guess there's no law against day dreaming out loud.

This is so damn true man! When I got my car it was gonna be hanging with 94-98 gts all day. Now I'm two years older and my mod money went to bills and a trans am.

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kenv

· #19 · Oct 22, 2012

MasterX said:
just get one of these, and go to the track, i guarantee after trying it, you will never question us again, unless you survive.

1995 Darwin Award: JATO Rocket Car

......................:laugh:............15+char

Draghon

Discussion Starter · #20 · Oct 23, 2012

You are right, Maybe I would have the money to buy a new car by the time I get the money, but it's the pride of saying "I built it" that means something to me...

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